(TURBO) What makes/supports 500-550HP reliably for our cars?

[tomm.brz]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I run up to 12.5, and my cam tables are bespoke to my car, tuned by Zach Tucker. Zero corners cut with my setup and tune.

i ll join since I tuned him.. with e85 initially, with OFT (!) and STOCK injectors (!!) offset by a 35% almost on their cc size table
with 8-9psi, his use of stock PI injector on e85 was already on the edge
he has plenty of power on e85 and high timings and then he also suddenmly switch to 91oct e10
The slightly rixher afr needed for 91 makes the use of PI even more extreme so that final ign timing went of course down and I set them to the edge of knock

and then he asked me if he would make more power with an electronic controller and raising the boost, and I answered to him that with e85 would probably be no problem, since it still had some headroom in timings with the base boost, but I also said that raising boost, with oft and stock injectors and flex fueling, would create problems because injectors are maxed out and I wasn t comfortable in tuning that anymore

With ecutek and/or bigger PI i would have no problem in saying to him to raise boost

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidsnake11

Very aware but it seems some leave out the details.

example
I ran 21-22lbs on 93.
Vs
I ran gt4202 @ 21-22lbs on 93 full spool ~ 6000 rpm and 10.5 to 1, eagle rods and large intercooler.

Most folks only talk about their peak boost, and peak power, whether they're turboed or supercharged. It's extremely rare to see someone speaking otherwise. Likewise, most turbo setups have a flat or falling boost curve, not a rising boost curve.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

i ll join since I tuned him.. with e85 initially, with OFT (!) and STOCK injectors (!!) offset by a 35% almost on their cc size table
with 8-9psi, his use of stock PI injector on e85 was already on the edge
he has plenty of power on e85 and high timings and then he also suddenmly switch to 91oct e10
The slightly rixher afr needed for 91 makes the use of PI even more extreme so that final ign timing went of course down and I set them to the edge of knock

and then he asked me if he would make more power with an electronic controller and raising the boost, and I answered to him that with e85 would probably be no problem, since it still had some headroom in timings with the base boost, but I also said that raising boost, with oft and stock injectors and flex fueling, would create problems because injectors are maxed out and I wasn t comfortable in tuning that anymore

With ecutek and/or bigger PI i would have no problem in saying to him to raise boost

Are you able to lower boost on the setup while on gasoline?

[DarkPira7e]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Most folks only talk about their peak boost, and peak power, whether they're turboed or supercharged. It's extremely rare to see someone speaking otherwise. Likewise, most turbo setups have a flat or falling boost curve, not a rising boost curve.

This is just it. With my tune, we delay boost intentionally. It comes in at 7 psi and is only at 10psi by 4,500rpm. It ramps up to 17psi between 5-7500 to make a smooth curve. Staying out of boost below 3500 is also essential in my opinion, for stock motor

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidsnake11

Not my point.

Rising boost curve is way easier on the engine and knock.
150hp @ 1000. rpm = 787.8 ft-lbs
150hp @ 7400. rpm = 106.5 ft-lbs
150hp @ 74000. rpm = 10.6 ft-lbs

Sure is. This is the context of my reply, in case you missed it. The table, being of only 2 dimensions, is um... inconclusive.

Originally Posted by dholloway543

Agreed i wouldn't go too low on CP ratio but like 10.5 or 11 would be way better. I'm running 12.5:1 forged internals and the max boost limit of the turbo before knock is approximately 8-10psi.





Im not sure why but more boost = more power even though the overall cp is the same. My guess is that its less of a fighting force as the piston comes up so less power is waited on the compression stroke. More power in boost less power out of boost.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Sure is. This is the context of my reply, in case you missed it. The table, being of only 2 dimensions, is um... inconclusive.

Agreed. I am technically at the beginning of the red, but I don’t think there is concern at all running 12 psi @12.5:1 on E85. It isn’t an issue on pump either with a progressive boost like a SC. There is more risk to the rods from torque than from preignition on my stock motor, so I was surprised the guy has a built motor, but is only running 10 psi on E85. That seems overly conservative. I think it is even too conservative on pump gas because of the built motor.

That chart might be old like before direct injection and high compression engines were more prevalent. It definitely doesn’t apply to built motors on race fuel.

I know lots of people do built motors with modest goals, or they do it for security or insurance, but I couldn’t resist more boost if I had a built motor. I would run progressive boost, boost by gear, dual boost maps and boost by ethanol level. Like couldn’t he run a lower boost map for 91 or when the flex fuel is closer to E10 and run a higher boost map when it is over E45 or something? Like I’ve seen plenty of setups that automatically switched to ones that had a toggle or button to people running manual boost switches. Is OFT tune the problem for him?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by solidsnake11

My point is post your boost per rpm when you use a boost curve.

It’s a secret

[tomm.brz]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Are you able to lower boost on the setup while on gasoline?

Wastegate is about 9 psi, so no and without ecutek i couldn t set a variable boost depending on fuel so i gently declined the tuning with more boost

Only way i thought was with a manual ebc but i mean, would be pretty rude to have to remember each time to set a different boost (not even precise then) when changing fuel

[tomm.brz]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Agreed. I am technically at the beginning of the red, but I don’t think there is concern at all running 12 psi @12.5:1 on E85. It isn’t an issue on pump either with a progressive boost like a SC. There is more risk to the rods from torque than from preignition on my stock motor, so I was surprised the guy has a built motor, but is only running 10 psi on E85. That seems overly conservative. I think it is even too conservative on pump gas because of the built motor.

That chart might be old like before direct injection and high compression engines were more prevalent. It definitely doesn’t apply to built motors on race fuel.

I know lots of people do built motors with modest goals, or they do it for security or insurance, but I couldn’t resist more boost if I had a built motor. I would run progressive boost, boost by gear, dual boost maps and boost by ethanol level. Like couldn’t he run a lower boost map for 91 or when the flex fuel is closer to E10 and run a higher boost map when it is over E45 or something? Like I’ve seen plenty of setups that automatically switched to ones that had a toggle or button to people running manual boost switches. Is OFT tune the problem for him?

the guy also has an openflash and its limitation, and stock injectors with FI and e85(and its limitations!!) but also uses 91

With e85 we could definitely (with an eye to the PI opening time and the use of a little leaner afr) add an ebc and raise the boost despite the high compression ratio, but the problems come out when he switches to 91
It needs quite a richer afr (even if e85 requires at least 20% more fuel compared to e10, that becomes a problem anyway because PI is still to extreme uses) to cool things up and PI becomes maxed out and it requires too much of a reduction in ign timings that, other than being TOO much of a reduction, it basically knocks randomly in an uncontrolled way. And i had no way of reducing further timings against higher gears

Give me his tune again, with a bigger PI and an ebc hooked into Ecutek instead of OFT, and better things come out

I think CSG Mike can imagine the pain in the ass this sitaution and the use of openflash (so no ecutek tricks) to tune this car in particular is

Most tuners wouldnt even start to tune a FI Flex car that has stock injectors... and they REQUIRE ecutek


Trying to maximize performance is cool but i surely don t try to do it in this situation... at least he won t bend a rod while he enjoys a perfectly running flex turbo Frs, and in the meanwhile he can upgrade injectors and switch to ecutek

[CSG Mike]

Nothing is secret. It's just a matter of asking the right questions, because if you ask a general question, you'll get a general answer.

Or you can just watch my videos.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

Wastegate is about 9 psi, so no and without ecutek i couldn t set a variable boost depending on fuel so i gently declined the tuning with more boost

Only way i thought was with a manual ebc but i mean, would be pretty rude to have to remember each time to set a different boost (not even precise then) when changing fuel

Ah, now there's the key bit.

Sounds like it's time to change tuning solutions, since relative to all the other money spent on the build, it seems odd to penny pinch on such a critical item.

[tomm.brz]

thanks for the answers and the understanding

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

the guy also has an openflash and its limitation, and stock injectors with FI and e85(and its limitations!!) but also uses 91

With e85 we could definitely (with an eye to the PI opening time and the use of a little leaner afr) add an ebc and raise the boost despite the high compression ratio, but the problems come out when he switches to 91
It needs quite a richer afr (even if e85 requires at least 20% more fuel compared to e10, that becomes a problem anyway because PI is still to extreme uses) to cool things up and PI becomes maxed out and it requires too much of a reduction in ign timings that, other than being TOO much of a reduction, it basically knocks randomly in an uncontrolled way. And i had no way of reducing further timings against higher gears

Give me his tune again, with a bigger PI and an ebc hooked into Ecutek instead of OFT, and better things come out

I think CSG Mike can imagine the pain in the ass this sitaution and the use of openflash (so no ecutek tricks) to tune this car in particular is

Most tuners wouldnt even start to tune a FI Flex car that has stock injectors... and they REQUIRE ecutek

Trying to maximize performance is cool but i surely don t try to do it in this situation... at least he won t bend a rod while he enjoys a perfectly running flex turbo Frs, and in the meanwhile he can upgrade injectors and switch to ecutek

Butttttt wwwhhhyyyy? Why build an engine to use open flash and stock injectors?! Like I understand the idea of a tight budget, but a good tune and proper injectors are just as good insurance as a built motor, and they are cheaper. That dude needs to make the switch to ECUTEK and make injectors his number one priority.

[tomm.brz]

maybe he will do, who knows
at least now his car is running safe and good