More confirmation from Toyota on next gen 86

[why?]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Neither of those motors will pass current emissions. The 2017-on FA20 doesn’t even pass Euro emissions. It doesn’t even pass US emissions in the auto! The 2.0 NA is done, unless you want a power cut down to ~180 (I wonder why the Miata sits at 2 liters and 180hp, hmmm).

Only way to keep the power even the same, let alone increase it, and stay NA, is to make the motor bigger.

Right, so every single na car larger than 2 liters cannot pass emissions? Somehow I doubt that. This is a case of don't believe everything you read. Just because somewhere someone claims that does not make it true.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by why?

Right, so every single na car larger than 2 liters cannot pass emissions? Somehow I doubt that. This is a case of don't believe everything you read. Just because somewhere someone claims that does not make it true.

It’s an phenomenon that doesn’t affect low specific output NA motors, like American V8s or truck engines. Anything that’s near or over 100hp/l though, emits more and more Nox gasses, kind of like a turbo motor, except you can’t turn the boost down to reduce cylinder pressure. That’s one of the reasons why all high specific output motors lately have had forced induction. Even the Porsche GT3 almost got a turbo motor when the 991 got facelifted. Some manufacturers can deal with it by using a really tall overdrive for cruising (corvette, mustang), but our cars don’t have the grunt down low to deal with that.

[86MLR]

Originally Posted by why?

Right, so every single na car larger than 2 liters cannot pass emissions? Somehow I doubt that. This is a case of don't believe everything you read. Just because somewhere someone claims that does not make it true.

I think it's more about power levels from 2.0ltr and the resulting emmisions

More power = more emmisions

The manufacturers need to comply with the Euro emmisions standards to be competitive

152kw is quite good for a 2.0l NA engine, but trying to wring out much more, whilst retaining emmisions compliance is the issue

In the end the twins are bargain basement sports coupes out of the box, that also have great potential for those willing to play around a bit

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Neither of those motors will pass current emissions. The 2017-on FA20 doesn’t even pass Euro emissions. It doesn’t even pass US emissions in the auto! The 2.0 NA is done, unless you want a power cut down to ~180 (I wonder why the Miata sits at 2 liters and 180hp, hmmm).

It was a decision to get as much as possible from the 2017-on FA20 on specific regions and have a differentiation in the EU cars which still use the old intake and exhaust manifolds. This doesn't mean that the specific engine technology is outdated. The FA20 engine still passes newer emissions like the Euro 6d-TEMP-EVAP-ISC without any hardware changes. Most manufacturers with high performance engines had to rely on an exhaust particulate filter (Ottopartikelfilter) to pass such emissions ...

A question to provide even a higher performance is something that it looks they listen and checking, but not because of emission reasons.

[Dirty Harry]

Originally Posted by 86MLR

I think it's more about power levels from 2.0ltr and the resulting emmisions

More power = more emmisions

The manufacturers need to comply with the Euro emmisions standards to be competitive

152kw is quite good for a 2.0l NA engine, but trying to wring out much more, whilst retaining emmisions compliance is the issue

In the end the twins are bargain basement sports coupes out of the box, that also have great potential for those willing to play around a bit

Goes to show how good those S2000 motors were, 184kw from a NA 2.0 motor. I wonder if they could achieve the same feat with today's emissions? But agree 152kw from a NA 2.0 motor is pretty good. I don't think there are many/any current motors that achieve this output per litre that are NA?

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

Goes to show how good those S2000 motors were, 184kw from a NA 2.0 motor. I wonder if they could achieve the same feat with today's emissions?

Likely not.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

Goes to show how good those S2000 motors were, 184kw from a NA 2.0 motor. I wonder if they could achieve the same feat with today's emissions? But agree 152kw from a NA 2.0 motor is pretty good. I don't think there are many/any current motors that achieve this output per litre that are NA?

Ferrari and Porsche
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_F140_engine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsch...peedster_(2019)

Aaand, that's it. Generally speaking in the rest of the world, you can produce a higher hp/liter higher polluting engine than what the 86 has, but first world governments tax the hell out of them which gets passed onto the consumer so nobody would buy it. Porsche and Ferrari do it on their supercars because the buyers are willing to pay the taxes on the fast cars that cost more than most people's homes, people were up in arms about $25k for this shitbox at 200hp, crank it up to 240hp N/A and add on another $5k-$10k to the price tag (not just taxes, but development costs to find the power in more complex and accurate castings and post-machining process for the heads of this car) and nobody in their right mind would pay Mustang GT/Camaro SS money for the tin can with a hyped up sewing machine under the hood.

Y'all should just slap a supercharger on it and quit yer bitching.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Ferrari and Porsche
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_F140_engine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsch...peedster_(2019)

Aaand, that's it. Generally speaking in the rest of the world, you can produce a higher hp/liter higher polluting engine than what the 86 has, but first world governments tax the hell out of them which gets passed onto the consumer so nobody would buy it. Porsche and Ferrari do it on their supercars because the buyers are willing to pay the taxes on the fast cars that cost more than most people's homes, people were up in arms about $25k for this shitbox at 200hp, crank it up to 240hp N/A and add on another $5k-$10k to the price tag (not just taxes, but development costs to find the power in more complex and accurate castings and post-machining process for the heads of this car) and nobody in their right mind would pay Mustang GT/Camaro SS money for the tin can with a hyped up sewing machine under the hood.

Y'all should just slap a supercharger on it and quit yer bitching.

WOW, strat61caster, tell us how you REALLY feel -


humfrz

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by humfrz

WOW, strat61caster, tell us how you REALLY feel -


humfrz

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by 86MLR

The twins fit in the S - segment at Sports Coupe



What are the twins classed as within that segment then, sports car? GT coupe? Super mini? Sports sedan? Sports saloon?, hell you could even fight the fight for Pony car if you are from America....



Some wicky thing - "Pony car is an American car classification for affordable, compact, highly styled coupés or convertibles with a sporty or performance-oriented image.[1][2] Common characteristics include rear-wheel drive, a long hood, a short decklid, a wide range of options to individualize each car and use of mass-produced parts shared with other models".



If you go off some typical guidelines, they could fit in between super mini and sports sedan.



They are not really a "sports car" because it is not a roadster, it has back seats and a fixed roof.



So, what is it then, does it matter, before 1970 the 911 would have been classed as a GT Coupe? Maybe.., but, after 1970 marketing decided they liked the name "sports car" better, and so it came to pass.



Hell, every generation that passes changes the names of things to something "more hip".



Classification is simple, but then cool kids and marketing walk in the door and complicate things.



Lets call them GT coupes, the name GT86 gives it away. Sadly though, they don't actually match up with the specs of what a GT is, marketing and cool kids strike again.



If you need to name them, call the Sports Coupes, after that it gets tricky, and pointless.



Opinions may vary



LOL

All really good points. I just refer to the twins as 86 or BRZ now. GT86 should never have been used. It doesn’t fit what I think of a GT car. Grand Touring right? Yeah I love my car to death, but it’s not grand or touring capable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JesseG]

I should clarify, I will be taking my FR-S on road trips, it’s a terrific car for any type of driving. But a GT car to me is something a little more upscale, like an M5, and the classic Japanese sports cars like the 300ZX and Supra.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vh_supra26]

Don't shoot the messenger, just relaying post from our sister forum.

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/b48...us.1747/page-3

Originally Posted by GT-3

New version of 86 was also revealed at dealer meeting, exterior shown and 2.4l engine confirmed but little else.

Originally Posted by SS09ER

Will there be any info or concept car at the Tokyo show in October? Also did you like it compared to the current car?

Is it sportier or at the sames lines or anything else?

Originally Posted by GT-3

Hard to tell, looks similar profile to current but front end cleaned up and much softer and simple lines on front end than current version.

[Dirty Harry]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

Don't shoot the messenger, just relaying post from our sister forum.

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/b48...us.1747/page-3

Interesting, thanks for posting. How legit do you think this "dealer meeting" is? Do you know the member posting it that well?

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

Don't shoot the messenger, just relaying post from our sister forum.

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/b48...us.1747/page-3

Hmm... rather than developing an NA 2.4L motor, it'd probably make more sense to throw the FA20DIT into the car since it's already in production.

That said, I'd welcome a high-revving 2.4L making ~240 hp if they could keep the same weight and weight distribution (or improve on it). But I doubt that happens unless the rear seats are deleted and the cabin pushed rearward, which isn't going to happen with the Supra's positioning in the lineup.

BTW not saying I believe the source, just giving my thoughts if it were to happen.