next gen 86 reportedly coming

[meadowz06]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

See us commoners don't notice the changes since we are not pro racers that can tell how much tread wear a car has by how much it understeers. When the car is pushed hard you may be able to tell a minute difference but all of these massive changes people report while street driving seem more like confirmation of bias than anything. If you go in wanting to feel a big change then you will (of course that could be flipped the other way as well).

Bingo. The mind will play tricks.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by meadowz06

Most cannot tell a difference between a 16 and a 17 model. Hell, I can't tell any difference between my 13 and my 16.

Yes that's true. Many people have to obey speed limits and cannot drive really aggressive. Additionally, they don't join race tracks. The designers knew that many of the changes won't be really noticeable by these people, BUT they made them because these cars are focused also to another target group.

Mind can play tricks, but stopwatches don't lie

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Yes that's true. Many people have to obey speed limits and cannot drive really aggressive. Additionally, they don't join race tracks. The designers knew that many of the changes won't be really noticeable by these people, BUT they made them because these cars are focused also to another target group.

Mind can play tricks, but stopwatches don't lie

The stopwatch only comes into effect when the driver's skill has reached the limit of the car though. Until a driver has reached the point where they are getting one repeatable time on a consistent basis then mods are not the answer. Once you hit a time you just can't beat then is when you need to start looking at what you can do with the car.


But...


This is also where the psychological effects of modding come in yet again. Even though a person may be able to go faster in their stock car it they don't push it to 100%. It sometimes takes something as simple as a strut brace or heavier sway bar to give them the confidence to do it. In those cases it isn't really the part it self that decreased the time but the simple fact that the driver would now push that bit harder.

[meadowz06]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Yes that's true. Many people have to obey speed limits and cannot drive really aggressive. Additionally, they don't join race tracks. The designers knew that many of the changes won't be really noticeable by these people, BUT they made them because these cars are focused also to another target group.

Mind can play tricks, but stopwatches don't lie

5hp isn’t going to do anything on a track. Brakes and tires, yes.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The stopwatch only comes into effect when the driver's skill has reached the limit of the car though.

I disagree. If a driver is only comfortable driving a car to 8/10ths, a faster car will still generate a faster lap time.
Think of a Z06 at 8/10ths versus an 86 at 8/10s. Or a supercharged 86 at 8/10ths versus a stock 86 at 8/10ths.
It may not be an exact correlation, but a slow driver will usually drive a fast car faster than a slow car.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Pat

I disagree. If a driver is only comfortable driving a car to 8/10ths, a faster car will still generate a faster lap time.
Think of a Z06 at 8/10ths versus an 86 at 8/10s. Or a supercharged 86 at 8/10ths versus a stock 86 at 8/10ths.
It may not be an exact correlation, but a slow driver will usually drive a fast car faster than a slow car.

But they are still driving the faster cars below the abilities of the car. Just because the car is faster doesn't mean they all of a sudden drive it 10/10.
If they drive a Mustang faster it doesn't make their lap times in a Twin faster. Sure if they make the Twin faster they may be able to get a slightly better time but they are still leaving much on the table due to skill so why start throwing parts at it at that point? There is also the probability that an inexperienced or poor driver will actually have slower times with a "faster" car (if they don't outright wreck it). This is what I mean when I say if they have maxed out the TWIN it is time to make changes.
Damn I don't think I am explaining this well at all.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Pat

I disagree. If a driver is only comfortable driving a car to 8/10ths, a faster car will still generate a faster lap time.
Think of a Z06 at 8/10ths versus an 86 at 8/10s. Or a supercharged 86 at 8/10ths versus a stock 86 at 8/10ths.
It may not be an exact correlation, but a slow driver will usually drive a fast car faster than a slow car.

but an 86 at 8/10th is not the same as a corvette Z06 at 8/10th.

if a driver of an 86 is comfortable at 8/10ths then they're not going to be pushing a Z06 at 8/10ths because its a far more powerful car. An 8/10ths 86 could be equivalent to a Z06 at say 6/10th. However they might feel a bit more comfortable pushing the Z06 a bit further towards 8/10ths than getting an 86 beyond 8/10ths because it requires less effort to do it. But at the same time it may only give themselves a false sense of security because a Z06 at 8/10ths would likely require the same amount of skills to tame it as pushing an 86 to 9/10ths or 10/10ths.

[Pat]

As I said, it is not an exact correlation. They will still be faster in the faster car.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by meadowz06

5hp isn’t going to do anything on a track. Brakes and tires, yes.

Ask a Spec Miata racer what +5hp would do for them! They would sell their souls and the souls of their loved ones for that...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Sure if they make the Twin faster they may be able to get a slightly better time but they are still leaving much on the table due to skill so why start throwing parts at it at that point?

1) to prevent the car from wallowing around so much
2) to get some decent front camber into it for front grip and to preserve tire life
3) 'cuz it's fun...

There is also the probability that an inexperienced or poor driver will actually have slower times with a "faster" car (if they don't outright wreck it).

Well-chosen mods can make the car both faster *and* easier to drive at the limit. Poorly-chosen mods, maybe not...

[jflogerzi]

It should be interesting. With the industry moving to down sizing engines and turbo charging. With a tune and header this car can make 100WHP per liter which is pretty damn impressive. I say keep it NA and increase the displacement to 2.4L motor or just give us the damn WRX 2.0 Flat four turbo charged.

[Twinz]

Seat time > bolt-ons.

On our test-&-tune course, most new drivers who stick to it and come out regularly for 6 or so events will pick up 5 to 10 seconds without making any changes to their cars.

I can't think of any bolt-ons that will net that kind of time.

There is so much time available in the car that the owner has *already* bought.

It would be like me running out and buying the fanciest keyboard I could find rather than just learning how to type.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ZDan

1) to prevent the car from wallowing around so much
2) to get some decent front camber into it for front grip and to preserve tire life
3) 'cuz it's fun...



Well-chosen mods can make the car both faster *and* easier to drive at the limit. Poorly-chosen mods, maybe not...

Ya I agree with all that I am just not getting the right words to make my point.
First off you need to know that you need those things. You are talking about mods that an experienced driver will use.
You sort of hit my point with your last line. How does one know what the poorly chosen mods are if they are still only driving a car at 6/10 in it's stock form?
I guess what I am trying to say is that people don't need to worry about what camber they should have or how much the car wallows around until those things are interfering with their driving. Some seem to think that everybody hits the track at some advanced level of skill where making the car faster or handle better is a huge benefit right from the get go. I say it is not but it is certainly something people will grow into as they learn.


When we talk street use there is virtually no reason at all for most of what people do to their cars. I am NOT saying stock is "better" (my own car is modded) just that most of the performance mods done can not really be used to much advantage on the street.


I guess my main message is that modding for the sake of modding without knowing what those changes do is not a good plan.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Twinz

Seat time > bolt-ons.

On our test-&-tune course, most new drivers who stick to it and come out regularly for 6 or so events will pick up 5 to 10 seconds without making any changes to their cars.

I can't think of any bolt-ons that will net that kind of time.

There is so much time available in the car that the owner has *already* bought.

It would be like me running out and buying the fanciest keyboard I could find rather than just learning how to type.

THIS> ^ THIS is what I was trying to say!