FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Ongky

I am rebuild MY 2013 and when i bought from Subaru... The size is different

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

I just looked at the Toyota parts page and it looks like when you order the pivots for a 2013, both banks have the same part number now. The parts page shows this pivot fits all years, even 2017+. I am guessing they are compatible without swapping out more parts. I am curious if this would help bias some pressure to the bottom end. Surely there is a reason they made this change.

https://parts.toyota.com/p/Scion_201...U00306140.html

[Hags86]

There are references in this thread to the Reimax pump not helping solve the oil pressure at high revs/temps.

Reimax make two models. One is a drop in replacement and the other has a thicker gear, a spacer and needs some machine work done to the timing case cover. This is apparently a higher capacity pump. Which one is being referring to in this thread?

Has anyone put in oil restrictors in the heads to ensure the crank gets priority?

[Kiske]

Originally Posted by Hags86

Reimax make two models. One is a drop in replacement and the other has a thicker gear, a spacer and needs some machine work done to the timing case cover. This is apparently a higher capacity pump. Which one is being referring to in this thread?
priority?

All most all in this thread that bought the Reimax replacement gears didn't follow through with results. IIRC only the replacement oil gears were available at the time. Element Tuning used the oil pump and timing cover from the FA20DIT (15+ WRX) and ruled it out due to issues with tuning.

[DocWalt]

There are new Reimax gears, I only know of one person that's going to actually use them properly though: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13157

[Element Tuning]

Been a long time guys since I've been on any forums but I'll revisit some results.

The Remax gear was worse than OEM for us. The design resulted in lower oil pressure in the peak TQ areas and that's bad on turbocharged cars as the oil pressure did not ramp fast enough. I have one for sale if anyone else's testing showed differently. The calculations originally done did not factor in the OEM gear having nearly two pumps per peak tooth profile.

The FA20DIT cover has a larger oil pump (I believe it was 14mm vs 12mm of the BRZ). Because we have the Nemesis EMS stand-alone we could run that pump on our race car even thought the cam position sensors are not in the same location. Testing showed an improvement but it wasn't enough to solve the lower than ideal pressure on a boosted and raced BRZ FRS.

We also tried external dry sump pressure stages from in 3 different sizes and from 2 different manufactures. I was optimistic we could put together something to sell people that would be a bolt on solution. Frankly that project left me scratching my head as we weren't able to produce more pressure than we got from our Pro Comp engines using the oem pump.

Ultimately our Pro Comp FA20 long block build was the only thing that worked. I really wanted to go back and try and figure out why the external pressure stage that was a fail but unfortunately the FRS/BRZ aftermarket is a little soft on $$$$ mods. We wanted to do more for the platform but honestly without you guys spending the big bucks it's just not possible or I should say it doesn't make financial sense. There are plenty of products I had designed to further improve oil pressure, performance and reliability from the FA20 heads but market research pulled us into the Monster86 LS swap stuff.

It's a little harder to develop and market products as our race car is sporting a twin turbo V8 now I loved my FA race car setup though but that transmission was just such a hold back. There are two game changer items however I may release but I'm waiting to see what Subaru does with the STi engines.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by ermax

I just looked at the Toyota parts page and it looks like when you order the pivots for a 2013, both banks have the same part number now. The parts page shows this pivot fits all years, even 2017+. I am guessing they are compatible without swapping out more parts. I am curious if this would help bias some pressure to the bottom end. Surely there is a reason they made this change.

https://parts.toyota.com/p/Scion_201...U00306140.html

Be careful here as there was a complete redesign I believe to help with the rocker ejection that included longer valve stems, different rockers, and different pivots. I believe that was in an effort to change the rocker angle and to provide adequate oil volume to the pivot in an effort to reduce the rockers ejecting. It does appear the newer FA motors don't seem to have a consistent rocker ejection issue.

Our engine packages boost oil pressure by 20+ psi so we just aren't seeing the rockers eject on these older FA20s but I suspect "volume" to the pivot helps. On the new engines with the redesigned pivots there's no change in overall oil pressure unfortunately from what we've seen. I suspect this is the same for most as people are still sending us engines with spun rod bearings on the BRZ and also the WRX FA20DIT.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Be careful here as there was a complete redesign I believe to help with the rocker ejection that included longer valve stems, different rockers, and different pivots. I believe that was in an effort to change the rocker angle and to provide adequate oil volume to the pivot in an effort to reduce the rockers ejecting. It does appear the newer FA motors don't seem to have a consistent rocker ejection issue.

Our engine packages boost oil pressure by 20+ psi so we just aren't seeing the rockers eject on these older FA20s but I suspect "volume" to the pivot helps. On the new engines with the redesigned pivots there's no change in overall oil pressure unfortunately from what we've seen. I suspect this is the same for most as people are still sending us engines with spun rod bearings on the BRZ and also the WRX FA20DIT.

The new pivot has a smaller hole which would reduce "volume". My theory is the pivot actually works as a hydraulic lifter and a smaller hole would increase the lift and in theory reduce the slop in the rocker. I just ordered a single pivot so I can get it in my hand and do some measurements.

Sad to hear the newer engines still have oiling issues. I suspected the main reason you're primarily seeing 2013's failing was simply due to the age/miles. This time next year we will probably have a weekly thread on spun bearings on a 2014 like we do with the 2013 lately. Spun bearings on a 2013 with 80K miles on a fully stock car and proper oil levels is unreasonable IMO. I don't care how hard it's driven.

[Teseo]

Originally Posted by ermax

Sad to hear the newer engines still have oiling issues. I suspected the main reason you're primarily seeing 2013's failing was simply due to the age/miles. This time next year we will probably have a weekly thread on spun bearings on a 2014 like we do with the 2013 lately. Spun bearings on a 2013 with 80K miles on a fully stock car and proper oil levels is unreasonable IMO. I don't care how hard it's driven.

What i can do to prevent it?

[Element Tuning]

Well when the 2012s came out the rockers were ejecting immediately. The update has different angles and more. We looked carefully at the parts when they came out but I don't recall all the differences besides the longer stem, different pivot oiling holes, and the ball cup in the actual rocker is different. Unfortunately it's an expensive upgrade to change all the pivots, the rockers, and the valves. It's not something we bother with during our long block builds as it no longer seems to happen with all of our mods.


Many are careful with modding their new car so often you don't see carnage until warranties are expired. LOL! Also customers are content with their cars for a period of time and then they get bored and mod

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Teseo

What i can do to prevent it?

More oil pressure... only Phil has the answer to that. He has a business and keeps his secrets close.

[Teseo]

Originally Posted by ermax

More oil pressure... only Phil has the answer to that. He has a business and keeps his secrets close.

More pressure = thick oil ?

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by ermax

More oil pressure... only Phil has the answer to that. He has a business and keeps his secrets close.

Originally Posted by Teseo

More pressure = thick oil ?

Wish we had something we could sell other than an full engine build or an LS swap

Thicker oil helps but only marginally. Run an oil weight that suits your operating temperature. If you're a street guy running at 200F the stock weight or a little heavier is all you need but if you're a track guy running at 280F you better run as high a viscosity as you can find. There is a double edge sword there however as higher viscosity means more heat so you have to manage that also.

I've documented here what oils we run so look back but don't expect but a few psi from oil changes. I will tell you nothing stays in grade like Red Line...nothing!!!!

The solution:

The dilemma is the cost as we offer a solution and it starts at $5300. Clearly that's too much for the FRS/BRZ community as not everyone is buying our engines.

Now a complete bolt on solution I'm sure I could develop for around $5000 but a customer wouldn't have a build motor so you're still going to have to build your motor for 300+ whp.

I was trying to develop at $1500 solution but that didn't work out. It's hard for me to revisit this as I don't have an FA20 BRZ/FRS anymore for extended R&D.

If I could revisit the bolt on solution for $2k realistically how many of you would really be able to afford/justify this? It would really need a proper dry sump tank that is 8 quarts so it's going to have to be in the car and that's a major drawback for most people.

[DocWalt]

Phil was that the new or old Reimax gears you tested?

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

We also tried external dry sump pressure stages from in 3 different sizes and from 2 different manufactures. I was optimistic we could put together something to sell people that would be a bolt on solution. Frankly that project left me scratching my head as we weren't able to produce more pressure than we got from our Pro Comp engines using the oem pump.

By "dry sump pressure stages" you mean accusumps? Not an actual dry sump system replacing the wet sump system?