AE86 production numbers vs future?

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Kinda get you point, but kinda don't. LP 550-2 Balboni is limited edi and not regular prodection (well technically all LP series are limited edi). To me LP 550-2 Balboni is hyper GT car more than sports car, just like 599.

Hm... idk, current GT-R is higher up sports car, but don't feel they're in super car class yet. Not saying GT-R is crap, but feels like GT car (like DBS). Luxury yet have good performance.

My point is that Lambo recognized that for their purist car that RWD was the way to go. The entire company doing something for sales is irrelevant considering reports had lambo split about doing AWD on their cars and that the decision was mostly like done to please their new owners. No being mass produced isnt a rebutal considering most enthusiast would say all sports cars should come with a stick but in a business stance that would never happen.

I don't see how the Balboni is a GT more than sports car? Do you consider a 560-4 to be a sports car?

The GT-R has the price and performance to be considered a super car in my mind. I'm not sure if you are saying that its too luxurious to be considered a sports car but when I think super cars I think cars that excel in all areas with attention paid to performance

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay

My point is that Lambo recognized that for their purist car that RWD was the way to go. The entire company doing something for sales is irrelevant considering reports had lambo split about doing AWD on their cars and that the decision was mostly like done to please their new owners. No being mass produced isnt a rebutal considering most enthusiast would say all sports cars should come with a stick but in a business stance that would never happen.

I don't see how the Balboni is a GT more than sports car? Do you consider a 560-4 to be a sports car?

The GT-R has the price and performance to be considered a super car in my mind. I'm not sure if you are saying that its too luxurious to be considered a sports car but when I think super cars I think cars that excel in all areas with attention paid to performance

I don't think that's true. Balboni edi was made just to say thanks & Valentino Balboni's preference of rwd instead of awd. If that was the case Lambo would make rwd more often... but they haven't made any since Balboni edi.

560-4? Hm... that's hard question. It does come w 6sp manual... but cuz it's still in Gallardo chassis it's part of GT family... even though it's half super car half GT car imo.

I kinda got your point on GT-R... but isn't that go same thing w Type-R's? In hp/liter ration it's pretty good, I think and it excel in pretty much all areas w specially paid attention to performance... and no I'm not talking bout Civic Type-R. I'm talking bout NSX Type-R. Even it excel in all areas it still count as sports car. BMI did race against Gall & Mur w NSX and if NSX didn't overheat it would of taken 1st place against those cars.

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right. I'm just getting the ideas how other's think of "sports car", "super car", "gt car" and other other car genre.

[Dark]

Sport car 4 wheels, 1 motor. LOL Kidding.

Basically, there are 2 classes, sport coupe and sport sedan. Both coupe and sedan can be a sport car because they are called cars. It's like people always get confused about supercar(LFA, 458, SLS, etc.) and super car(super coupe(M3) and super sedan(M5, ISF, M3, C63)).

People consider sport coupe as a sport car(I'm not one of them), but not every coupe is a sport car. I agree with people who said that s2k is a sport car. It's a pure sport car, so is the Z. Sport car dedicates to performance and handling, but doesn't mean it's fast and track monster. Civic Type R is up there almost being a sport car, but it's not. It's a based of family sedan.....


well can't write anymore because it's almost 3 am.

[OldSkoolToys]

The AE86 is a sports car.

Taking any and all challengers on this.

[Midship Runabout]

^ But its ugly...

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

The AE86 is a sports car.
...

I agree with this statement.

Originally Posted by Midship Runabout

^ But its ugly...

It's 80's style, .

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

The AE86 is a sports car.
...

I agree with this statement.

Originally Posted by Midship Runabout

^ But its ugly...

It's 80's style, .

[Zaku]

Sprinter Trueno is a 3 door hatchback. Corolla.

Mazda Rx-7 FC3S is a Sports car.

Nuff Said

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Zaku

Sprinter Trueno is a 3 door hatchback. Corolla.

Mazda Rx-7 FC3S is a Sports car.

Nuff Said

I think both are sports cars, but some are more RAW than others. The AE86 would be on the lower totem poll of the scheme of things but still a sports car. In todays market it would be considered hot hatch if all things were equal.

Also for everyone here.."sports car" is an umbrella term. Which is the only term that really matters, especially when speaking in terms for marketing and insurance brackets. Supercar/hypercar/hot hatch/Fastbacks/Sports Coupe/Sports Sedan/Sports Wagon/Rally Car/etc.. all fall under this category. So while the arguments are matter of opinion, they still arn't valid over how the manufacturing company sees the car and how the government classifies the vehicle.

[Zaku]

Again a Hot hatch is a hatch it's not a sports car it's a marketing term. That's the point I'm trying to make by giving a example of the RX7, now this is only true about the Sprinter. IF you say LEVIN then I would agree with you to a degree, but no matter what you say it's a "corolla" corolla are not sports cars.

Arguably in the 80's one can say that to make it a sports car class, a car must make at least 150bhp(a standard set my Porsche back then) since only few Japanese sports cars fall into that category. AE86 made 120, while Celica Supra and Rx7 in 1986 made 154 +. A GTR R32 wouldn't count as a sports car it would be a coupe but one can argue that it is because it dominated with 200+ hp.

To me and oh wait like 40%+ of Japan sees ae86 is not a sports car, and it's this sort of mentality that allowed for things like Initial D to happen.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Zaku

Sprinter Trueno is a 3 door hatchback. Corolla.

Mazda Rx-7 FC3S is a Sports car.

Nuff Said

And it inevitably happens...its ok, I'm a well trained enthusiast.

*ahem*

The AE86 is a step ahead of its lesser corolla brethren in many ways than most people know. The 86 itself was built with performance in mind in almost every facet. While lesser model Levin/Trueno's came with the much more sloppy and soft AE85 chassis, the 86 chassis was reinforced in key structural points for better rigidity in not only cornering, but handling the higher HP output of the 4A-GE. (its still an 80's chassis, and considered soft by today's standards, for good reason)

AE86's (and non SR-5's in america) were equipped with 4-wheel disc brakes (not rear drums), a stiffer, sportier suspension, LSD option, and one transmission - the T50, a 5 speed manual. Are we done? Nein!

The 4A-GE, the heart and soul of the AE86, was a highly engineered and technologically advanced 1.6L 4 cylinder for its time, being one of the first mass produced (that's the key part) true Twin Cam EFI 4 cylinder's to hit the market. The biggest obvious point that the 4A-GE was made with performance in mind was this, quoted from the wiki:

"The first generation 4A-GE is nicknamed the "bigport" engine because it had intake ports of a very large cross-sectional area. While the port cross-section was suitable for a very highly modified engine at very high engine speeds, it caused a considerable drop in low-end torque due to the decreased air speeds at those rpms. To compensate for the reduced air speed, the first-generation engines included the T-VIS feature, in which dual intake runners are fitted with butterfly valves that opened at approximately 4,200 rpm. The effect is that at lower rpm (when the airspeed would normally be slow) four of the eight runners are closed, which forces the engine to draw in all its air through half the runners in the manifold. This not only raises the airspeed which causes better cylinder filling, but due to the assymetrical airflow a swirl is created in the combustion chamber, meaning better fuel atomisation. This enabled the torque curve to still be intact at lower engine speeds, allowing for better performance across the entire speed band and a broad, flat torque curve around the crossover point.[15]"

In Japan, the AE86's were a common and top-notch choice for the 1600 Class series races, and competing even against 1800 and 2000 class cars.

In Europe, the AE86 was undoubtedly one of the more popular rally cars of its day.
http://www.hachiroku.com.au/blog/?p=1269


Soooo...its not a sports car because????? Need I remind you that the AE86 came in 2-door notchback form as well, not just hatchbacks. Your notion that a "hatchback" isn't a sports car is entirely cosmetic. So I take it the Mk3 and Mk4 Supra's aren't sports cars?

[SUB-FT86]

This is how I see sports car or sporty cars

A sports car is a RWD or RWD based AWD, 2 seater,2 door aerodynamically styled coupe(mainly low-slung),well weighted steering with lots of communication,terrific brakes, and a track tuned suspension. Also weight and acceleration is a priority.

A GT sports car is a RWD/AWD, 2+2 seater but in some cases a 2 seater,2 door aerodynamic coupe(mainly low-slung),well weighted steering with good communication,terrific brakes, and a sport tuned suspension that might be a little more easier to live with. Also decent acceleration

A sport sedan is a FWD/AWD/RWD, 2+2 or 2+3, 4 door, aerodynamic or box like shaped,well weighted steering with good communication,terrific brakes, and a sport tuned suspension that might be a little more easier to live with. Also decent acceleration

A sporty(hatch) coupe is generally a economy FWD or sometimes AWD, 2+2/2+3,2 door,well weighted steering with good communication,terrific brakes, and a sport tuned suspension that might be a little more easier to live with. Also decent acceleration

My RSX falls into the fourth one and the FT86 IMO falls into the second one. My next car will only be a 1 or 2 on my list. I'm sick of number four and I would never choose number 3 as I am not a fan of sedans in general.

[WingsofWar]

Id like to see you argue that this is not a sports car because this is a hatch to insurance companies.

Ferrari FF (AWD Super Hatch)



But i can see your point to a certain extent, But like a said all marketing terms fall under the sports car category, and any of those terms tagged on a certain car are priced with a higher premium vs its non-sports counterparts regardless if they share chassis.

VW R32 Hatch= Sports Car = Higher Premium


vs

VW Golf = Not a sports car



Impreza STI = Sports Car


vs

Impreza Hatch = Not a sports car

[Zaku]

But even Toyota doesn't categorize the AE86 under it's sports car umbrella. 2000gt, Supra, Celica, MR2. Don't believe me go read about it, in they're Japanese corporate site history section. Even Wiki doesn't categorize it under sports car. And if it was a sports car it wouldn't have the effect it had, when The drift king took it and made it famous. I guarantee you if he didn't take and and made it beat a GTR R32 people wouldn't care much about them. Like they do today. It was a car that did what it wasn't suppose to do.Even Tsuchiya himself said that. Yes by us enthusiastic it's a sports car, by technical bureaucratic categorization it's not. The Coporation itself doesn't categorize it, Wiki, doesn't categorize it. It's Manual doesn't O__o

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Templat...9D%E6%9C%9F%29

I will even scan you my Uncle's AE86 manual from the 80's even that says it's not a sports car. The engine doesn't make a car a sports car , the chassis and layout makes it that, if we're going by your logic every Camry and Celica is a Lotus.

Also my argument stayed in the 80's range. And all Ferrari are considered thoroughbred and Super Cars. No one is gonna spend 100K plus on a hatchback, the point of hatch backs when they were invented was to be affordable.And even if they did, it be a Super car and Once again an STI of any sort is a Rally car, even Subaru says it's a Rally car.

Both sides of this arguments here has it's points but fact of the matter is if you roll back the clock and really want a true definition you need to go back to world war 1 when they made the first sport car. I don't think there's any argument on what a sports car is suppose to be when you tag it to the original. Which was a Vauxhaull.

And I'm making a stand as a person studying to be an automotive historian. AS an enthusiast I will agree with you on the AE86 but I will only accept the Coupe LEVIN.