AE86 production numbers vs future?

[Infernal]

you guys dont have:

ford focus RS - 300 bhp FWD
vauxhall astra VXR - 250 bhp FWD
renault megane RS250 - 250 bhp FWD

yeah they start as family hatchbacks, but id definately class them as sports cars... though they do get called hot hatches in europe

closest equivalent is a golf gti over there, but thats a pretty weak 200 bhp and it's fat

[Zaku]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Glad you see my point. So I'm not the crazy one here



But you do agree that certain civic (like Type-R) do count as part of sports car.

Just say IF and only IF, FT86 made price range from $20k~$28k and have base like current base Civic and high end like Civic Type-R, how much profit Toyota/Subaru will make from this.

Ppl that want eco A-to-B cars can buy base to mid FT86 and all the racing fan can buy mid to high end FT86. Isn't that a win win situation?



I do see your point... but isn't Type-R series are made to race. That's why it have R. If they just want performance, they just put Type S (like NSX Type S) instead of Type-R emblem.

also don't forget, Civic Type-R have beat S2k in the stock race before... but of course, driver makes a difference too

Originally Posted by EJ20

hey man, calm down! I do have the same issue with my friends who says that honda never made a sports car (ie, the type-r/rsx) and I just don't like arguing with them as sometimes they don't know (.....) they think fwd is lame? I know few good fwd cars that can do well as a sport car the civic is one of them and I don't care what others may say

I'm a rwd die hard, but if some car is priced good, light weight, and fun to drive, I will drive it even if its a fwd honda (I still remmeber my friends coments when I used to have eg6)
fwd, rwd, or awd these are all fast and fun to drive if you know what your doing so relax
hopfully the ft86 will not end as the S2000 (never driven one, but will have one at some point) but I really hope that the ft86 sells really well so that toyota make 2nd/3rd....ect gens

I really don't care if most buyer are teenagers as long as they make profit for toyota and belive me it will be in our favor in the future if we wanted a cheap light weight used sports car (as a donor or a track/race car) I don't want it to be expensive or has low sales so it may discontinue in 6th or 7th year

Oh No I understand the argument of both of you, and trust me on this I'm like the biggest Honda fan, I've owned 3, I had 2 GENs of Civic Si and a S2k( I haven't owned a single Toyota). They make sports car, but they mostly make performance coupes. But the fact of the matter is Civic TYPE R and SI aren't Sports Car. If you make the Argument that AN Integra Type R is a sports car then yes to a degree your right, even if it was based on a Van platform the DC5(RSX version).

A pure sports car is from the ground up sports car, doesn't matter if it's RWD MR 4WD or FWD and it's certainly not based on a VAN platform. The earlier Intergra the DC2 now that's a sports car, that was designed from the ground up just like a Nissan Silvia I consider these sports cars.

Even a Toyota Celica isn't a sports car. It was originally an alternative to people who can't afford a 2000 gt and is technically a coupe or a hatch. An NSX Type R isn't a sports car it's a SUPER car. And every Type R Civic was a Hot Hatch with the exception of the FD2 in which, I will agree with you to a degree. if you argue that an FD2 is a sports car. But aside from that, Civic of any type are passenger cars not Sports cars.

An EVO and STI isn't sports cars either they are Rally Cars.

The only Sports cars that are truely sports cars are along the lines of the 370z and S2000.

AN FT86 is a Performance Coupe.


"A car may be a sporting automobile without being a sports car. Performance modifications of regular, production cars, such as sport compacts, sports sedans, muscle cars, hot hatches and the like, generally are not considered sports cars, yet share traits common to sports cars. They are sometimes called "sports cars" for marketing purposes for increased advertising and promotional purposes.[5] Performance cars of all configurations are grouped as Sports and Grand tourer cars or, occasionally, as performance cars."

^ Crossa, Robert G. and Dixit, Ashutosh. "Customer-centric pricing: The surprising secret for profitability" Business Horizons, Volume 48, Issue 6, November-December 2005, Pages 483-491.

[Archer256]

You're not suppose to see IS-F's everywhere, the F is Lexus's M. not everybody can afford or even has the interest in that kind of a performance car even though you get M level performance for cheaper price.
likewise Lexus/BMW dont expect to sell massive amounts of these marques which is why you wont see them discontinued. Same way toyota should be expecting reasonable sales from the ft-86.

[Mr.Jay]

auguring how someone defines the word sports car is like auguring the best car ever made

its always gonna be different

while I do view certain civics and other FF cars as sporty cars I would never consider any of them true sports cars

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay

auguring how someone defines the word sports car is like auguring the best car ever made

its always gonna be different

while I do view certain civics and other FF cars as sporty cars I would never consider any of them true sports cars

Just wondering. In your definition/opinion, what count as true sports car?

[Allch Chcar]

Wow you guys certainly dragged this offtopic. You can argue what constitutes a sports car until the sun don't shine but why bother when you can just call it "sporty" ?

The original AE86 was limited to just a couple years and it was an upscale version at that. I do agree with the point that was made several times that if Toyota/Subaru/Scion wants this to succeed reliably they'll offer a base model that appeals to more people with the sporty version being upscale. Considering the market and the target weight, 200BHP N/A would be "sporty" in this car. The tC is only 160BHP in a 3000lb car. Getting that 10lbs per HP would be possible for a turbo model but I'd bet that would be less than 10% of the overall sales.

I'll use the example of a popular American "Muscle" *cough*pony*cough* car. The Mustang would have died out a long time ago if it didn't have a cheap/efficient I4/I6 cylinder and recently the v6. You might not associate the Mustang as a 4 cylinder car but the most popular generation besides the original was the Fox Body which had a 4 cylinder even when there wasn't a 6 cylinder . The V8 Mustang is anywhere from 10-20% of the sales, IDK the exact figure, and now it starts at $29k while the V6 goes for $22k. It's obvious which sells better, hint: the V6 models.

[ichitaka05]

LOL for me now, I'm not arguing for sure. Just wanna hear other ppl's opinion on what count as Sports car.

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Just wondering. In your definition/opinion, what count as true sports car?

A two doors, precise handling, brisk acceleration, and sharp braking for its size. Design and built with performance in mind.

Thats why I don't consider the hooped up version of a family car a sports car cause the car wasn't designed with all that in mind but was later blessed with performance upgrades ie the type-r, SE-R

Usually I only include RWD in my definition of sports cars cause I see AWD cars more as rally inspired plus when I think of the word sports car I imagine the joy of going into a corner and letting the rear break loose just abit

[Archer256]

Civic Si is a "sports" car as far as i care

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay

A two doors, precise handling, brisk acceleration, and sharp braking for its size. Design and built with performance in mind.

Thats why I don't consider the hooped up version of a family car a sports car cause the car wasn't designed with all that in mind but was later blessed with performance upgrades ie the type-r, SE-R

Usually I only include RWD in my definition of sports cars cause I see AWD cars more as rally inspired plus when I think of the word sports car I imagine the joy of going into a corner and letting the rear break loose just abit

I see your view

LOL You know that current Lambos are AWD also include Veyron is AWD, right? But I guess, those are counted as exotic car more than sports car? How bout GT-R? I count them as sports car.... but not sure if it does in your definition/opinion.

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

I see your view

LOL You know that current Lambos are AWD also include Veyron is AWD, right? But I guess, those are counted as exotic car more than sports car? How bout GT-R? I count them as sports car.... but not sure if it does in your definition/opinion.

Yea I'm aware but those are supercars but you do know that Lambo came out with a Balboni edition which they said was for the purist and that came only in RWD

Also the Veyron isnt a sports car it is much more a hyper GT car

The GT-R itself has moved up market and should now be considered a super car

[Zaku]

Lol your absolutely right, GTR are super car now, and I feel it should get its own category "super car killer"

[Allch Chcar]

Sports cars in my mind are purposely designed to be efficiently aerodynamic, balanced, fast and/or quick, and usually good looking. Although they tend to only be true two seaters they can have more and usually the best configuration is RWD. Just my humble opinion.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay

Yea I'm aware but those are supercars but you do know that Lambo came out with a Balboni edition which they said was for the purist and that came only in RWD

Also the Veyron isnt a sports car it is much more a hyper GT car

The GT-R itself has moved up market and should now be considered a super car

Kinda get you point, but kinda don't. LP 550-2 Balboni is limited edi and not regular prodection (well technically all LP series are limited edi). To me LP 550-2 Balboni is hyper GT car more than sports car, just like 599.

Hm... idk, current GT-R is higher up sports car, but don't feel they're in super car class yet. Not saying GT-R is crap, but feels like GT car (like DBS). Luxury yet have good performance.