Why would more power ruin the car??

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by mrg666

Add an ACE header and tune. The header is lighter than original. Power increases by about 30-40 whp. No need for brakes, tires, shafts, any of what you counted up there. Fuel consumption does not go up under the same driving conditions.

Even with my JRSC kit, weight didn't increase more than ~40 lbs while power increased about 100 hp. None of the changes you mentioned was needed for normal driving. For the track, an oil cooler is necessary but it is necessary even for an NA. I upgraded with wider tires. But since I replaced with lighter wheels, there was no significant weight change either. Actually, I might have saved some but it is not worth mentioning. Handling is the same. Fuel consumption did not change in the same driving conditions either. I still get 29-30 mpg. That just left me with 100hp extra. Did it ruin my car?

Cut the nonsense, please

29-30 mpg, you are rather light on that pedal.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

29-30 mpg, you are rather light on that pedal.

Yeah, I generally don't push that pedal unless I mean it

[circuithero]

Originally Posted by Harey

I said in the first post this thread is not about whether Subaru/Toyota should have made the car with more power. As you said there are heaps of those threads already.

The thread is about the best way to modify the twin for more power and keep its wonderful handling. And if its possible

This thread is about why "Toyota, Subaru and others say that more power would ruin the twins."


My comment still applies because it explains why your 'caveats', particularly the 2nd and 3rd are unrealistic from an OEM perspective. Also it perfectly illustrates why more power (at this price point) would ruin the car. It just won't be the same car. Additional power, especially for an OEM will add weight at this price point (370z), that is explained in my old quote. You want to keep it light, but add power and keep OEM reliability and engineering? Won't be a cheap car (Alfa 4C). You have unrealistic expectations without understanding all the variables involved for an OEM manufacturer.


Personally I think that if you want to maintain the lively character of the car and keep it nearly OEM reliable there are a few things to keep in mind: keep it light, keep it NA and don't add too much grip. Almost ala Porche RS treatment.

• ACE header + tune
• Take out about ~100lb, this is easy without compromising creature comforts (exhaust, lightweight battery, junk in the trunk)
• Keep the tirewidth 225 and under, compound without too much grip
• Don't stiffen up the suspension too much

What makes the Twins and Miata fun to drive is the car has low grip and moves around under you. It's lively, engaging and yet approachable. With my formula it will turn all of that to 11, a little faster, a little more engaging, a little more prone to oversteer...


And the car will be a rock solid DD.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

That sounds more like you though ¿¿¿

...... best you just stay out of it, Jordanwolf ....... I can only protect you from the forum wolves for so long .....


humfrz

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by humfrz

...... best you just stay out of it, Jordanwolf ....... I can only protect you from the forum wolves for so long .....


humfrz

I am a lone wolf. You need not protect me from such incompetent beings, for I shall not falter from the offensive advances of the weak and lame.

I. Am. Wolfman.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

I am a lone wolf. You need not protect me from such incompetent beings, for I shall not falter from the offensive advances of the weak and lame.

I. Am. Wolfman.

Your call ....... lone wolf .......


humfrz

[rice_classic]

Moar Powaa!!??

Meh.. I'd rather have a roll cage and a logbook. Thank you very much.

[Spacemane969]

I just came back from test driving a new '17 86 for sh*ts and giggles. I've always been in the camp that this car has plenty of power. But my God that thing was absolutely dead on the throttle. I really can't figure out why it felt so bad compared to my 2013. The only mods I have are springs, MP AS3s, lighter wheels, drop in filter and differential mount on bushings.

I remember my very first test drive it did seem a tad sluggish, even with me never having driven a sports car. But today the lag was astronomical. I can't help but think it needs to be broken in some.

However that OG suspension geometry brought more smiles to my face than I've had in a long time. Something about the chassis is just so instinctively fun.

[Harey]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I missed seeing this until niki was kind enough to bring it up. Yes, agreed these things can be measured but that does not define a car as "ruined" or not. There are still some that will prefer one aspect over another and will say the guy that likes something else is dead wrong. That is why I don't think you will ever get a black and white answer to a very gray question.

If handling is such a grey question then why do most people agree the twins handle well? I think a good handling car is mostly black/white, sure some drivers will like slightly different setups for different driving styles but the majority of car people will agree whether a car has good handling or not.

For example swapping out the engine for something that weighs 50% more without doing any other changes would ruin the car. The car would have slower corner speeds.

I thought the main purpose of a forum was to discuss experiences and share knowledge. Sure different people will have different opinions on the same thing but with a large enough sample size you generally get a decent feel for what to expect.

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by Harey

If handling is such a grey question then why do most people agree the twins handle well? I think a good handling car is mostly black/white, sure some drivers will like slightly different setups for different driving styles but the majority of car people will agree whether a car has good handling or not.

For example swapping out the engine for something that weighs 50% more without doing any other changes would ruin the car. The car would have slower corner speeds.

I thought the main purpose of a forum was to discuss experiences and share knowledge. Sure different people will have different opinions on the same thing but with a large enough sample size you generally get a decent feel for what to expect.

After 17 pages of repeating the same thing over and over, that goes out the window.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Harey

If handling is such a grey question then why do most people agree the twins handle well? I think a good handling car is mostly black/white, sure some drivers will like slightly different setups for different driving styles but the majority of car people will agree whether a car has good handling or not.

For example swapping out the engine for something that weighs 50% more without doing any other changes would ruin the car. The car would have slower corner speeds.

I thought the main purpose of a forum was to discuss experiences and share knowledge. Sure different people will have different opinions on the same thing but with a large enough sample size you generally get a decent feel for what to expect.

There are tens of thousands of threads with hundreds of thousands of posts on how people change the handling or want more power. If you can get a a large enough group to come s single conclusion on what is good or ruins it then you have pulled off a miracle.
If you only wish to consider those comments that support what you already think then the job will indeed be easier.

[Ro_Ja]

Originally Posted by circuithero

Personally I think that if you want to maintain the lively character of the car and keep it nearly OEM reliable there are a few things to keep in mind: keep it light, keep it NA and don't add too much grip. Almost ala Porsche RS treatment.

• ACE header + tune
• Take out about ~100lb, this is easy without compromising creature comforts (exhaust, lightweight battery, junk in the trunk)
• Keep the tirewidth 225 and under, compound without too much grip
• Don't stiffen up the suspension too much

What makes the Twins and Miata fun to drive is the car has low grip and moves around under you. It's lively, engaging and yet approachable. With my formula it will turn all of that to 11, a little faster, a little more engaging, a little more prone to oversteer...

And the car will be a rock solid DD.

You get it.

[Harey]

Originally Posted by circuithero

This thread is about why "Toyota, Subaru and others say that more power would ruin the twins."


My comment still applies because it explains why your 'caveats', particularly the 2nd and 3rd are unrealistic from an OEM perspective. Also it perfectly illustrates why more power (at this price point) would ruin the car. It just won't be the same car. Additional power, especially for an OEM will add weight at this price point (370z), that is explained in my old quote. You want to keep it light, but add power and keep OEM reliability and engineering? Won't be a cheap car (Alfa 4C). You have unrealistic expectations without understanding all the variables involved for an OEM manufacturer.


Personally I think that if you want to maintain the lively character of the car and keep it nearly OEM reliable there are a few things to keep in mind: keep it light, keep it NA and don't add too much grip. Almost ala Porche RS treatment.

• ACE header + tune
• Take out about ~100lb, this is easy without compromising creature comforts (exhaust, lightweight battery, junk in the trunk)
• Keep the tirewidth 225 and under, compound without too much grip
• Don't stiffen up the suspension too much

What makes the Twins and Miata fun to drive is the car has low grip and moves around under you. It's lively, engaging and yet approachable. With my formula it will turn all of that to 11, a little faster, a little more engaging, a little more prone to oversteer...


And the car will be a rock solid DD.

Have a tune on E85 which was a fantastic improvement and is as far as I will go power wise. Dont want to change the headers for catless and will most likely only keep the car for a few years so like having it quick to take back to stock.

Only other mods are very grippy street tyres in oem size 215/45/17 (RE003) on oem wheels, slotted rotors and EBC yellow pads.

The thread is not actually to help me with my car, its to understand when adding power to this car what do you have to take into account to not "ruin" the fantastic balance and handling of the car.

Kept reading oh you shouldnt increase the power then it would ruin christmas!

More power without any other changes just means you have to brake more before a corner and use less throttle through the corner and get back to full throttle later coming out of the corner. Corner speed is not increased with just more power alone (unless you could take the corner at full throttle before and had grip left).

Im not saying oh everyone should increase power, Im just saying is power really that bad. Yes power is expensive, I have modified my past 5 cars for a lot more power but this will just be a short ownership so no point spending too much.

[Harey]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

After 17 pages of repeating the same thing over and over, that goes out the window.

Because it keeps going

There are so many high powered 86s out there running awesome lap times. How do they do increase power and keep it handling well is all im really asking.