Why would more power ruin the car??

[bkharmony]

Originally Posted by OfficeWorker

[*]Does Toyota have internal plans to introduce a RWD car that could be a potential intermediate between the 86 and forthcoming Supra? (e.g., a new MR2)[/LIST]

Toyota has officially announced plans for a three-vehicle performance lineup that would consist of the Supra, 86, and a smaller vehicle (think MR2) - not one between the Supra and 86.

http://www.thedrive.com/news/8228/to...-in-its-lineup

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I took my 70 Coronet from 370HP to 600 and it damn near ruined to for street use but not sure about the relevance to the Twins.

Tcoat ....... back-in-the-day ........

humfrz

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Tcoat ....... back-in-the-day ........

humfrz

Wrong year but again I will take it.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Wrong year but again I will take it.

Oh, my bad ....... is this one closer ......??




humfrz

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Oh, my bad ....... is this one closer ......??




humfrz

100% except for colour and hood scoop. Even has the right vinyl roof.

[Yoniyama]

Originally Posted by Harey

Toyota, Subaru and others say that more power would ruin the twins. With the below caveats I dont understand this??

- additional power/torque stays mostly linear (ignoring torque dip)
- additional power does not add weight (or perhaps very little and that little weight is counterbalanced at the rear of the car)
- additional power is OEM engineered (not wanting to discuss the reliability of aftermarket modifications)

I understand it was not the goal of the car, but I dont understand why it would ruin the car. Yes a turbo with a big rush of torque or a big heavy engine would ruin the handling agreed. But if the additional power/torque remains linear and there is minimal extra weight I dont see how it would ruin the car?

Im not saying necessarily that the twins should have come with more power (separate discussion) I am just questioning the statement that the car would be ruined. Is there something I am missing?

Your caveat of "additional power does not add weight" is not feasible. Additional power will add weight (wider tyres, bigger brakes, larger driveshaft, larger radiator, bigger exhaust, bigger intake, etc). To maintain the balance of the car, even more weight will be added: bigger fuel tank (more power usually means greater fuel consumption), larger spare wheel, beefing up suspension, etc.

Fuel consumption will go up, as well as the cost and sales price.

Conclusion: any significant power increase will increase weight, cost, and fuel consumption.

It may not ruin the Toybaru, per se, but it will change the original concept of the vehicle: light, efficient, cheap, and fantastic handling.

Instead, we should think of the Toybaru as a 'semi-kit car'. It is cheap but only about 90% complete. Although technically the end-user can drive the car as is, it is really meant to be 'furnished' by the end-user according to his exact requirement. The power-hungry can readily add more power without breaking the bank or reliability. Others may add more refinement (more sound insulation, better ride, etc). The permutation of different mod packages is almost endless, to suit every taste.

Last, but not least. Faster does not always require more power. Reducing weight by 100lb will also make the car faster and handle better at the same time.

[Harey]

Originally Posted by circuithero

Oh boy, this one is back. Here is my post from 5 years ago (!), still applies.


For those with goldfish attention span:


Basically pick 2: Cheap, Fast, Light. You won't get an entry level sports car that is powerful, light and cheap. You want more power while being cheap? That comes with more weight (370Z). You want it to still be light and 'relatively' powerful? Well that won't happen at this price point (Lotus, 4C, Cayman). Selling cars is still a business and you can't expect quality champagne on a beer budget.


I tracked my at the time 2013 FRS back to back with a modded e92 M3. The FRS was more fun to drive on track and I didn't miss the power. This car is exactly what it needs to be.


I think you have a pretty naive notion (no offense intended) of what it takes to make something like this happen. No way in hell are you going to get a 270hp, 2800lb car for 30~32k, especially from the twins.

Why is that? Well lets look at it from an engineers perspective. First and foremost, a feasibility study has to happen to make sure a project like this would not only be economically feasible but have a chance of being profitable. This is most likely where this idea would be shut down by any smart project manager. Why is that?

Well, first of all you are looking at an already small select portion of a smaller section of a market, the sports car market. You know what is profitable? Corollas, Civics, Cayennes. In fact, for all the 911 die hard fans, what saved Porsche a decade ago was not the Boxster, not the 996 911, it was the Cayenne. Because for every mid-life crisis guy looking to test the hair on his chest there are 1000+ A to B drivers. This trend is only continuing as less younger people are driving and of those that are, are looking for something simple, cheap and with navigation and iOS integration. Sports car are very rarely profitable. Sports cars are more traditionally used as marketing exercises with halo cars (ala GTR) and to aid the perception of a company: which is exactly the purpose of the twins. Nobody wants to say I own a car from the most beige, gray, bread and butter company. This is the main reasons manufacturers participate in racing, win on Sunday and sell on Monday.

Either way, there is no doubt that Toyota invested mega-cubic dollars to R&D and develop this car. It's very good, it's been hyped up for over 5 years - coincidentally Toyota had no proper sports cars and was often quoted as being the most bland and boring auto manufacturer (while maintaining #1 profitable spot for many years in NA). My personal bias tells me that Honda has quite decidedly snatched the boring auto leader from Toyota. Regardless, this car was a huge gamble and I'm sure the manufacturer will take a couple years, to hopefully, maybe break even after all the R&D and development; provided the car continues to be relatively popular. Now if you notice, a lot of journalists who have tested the TRD concept (no added power) have come away with the - "Yea its faster...but...it kinda lost that fun, approachable nature". And therein lies the crux! Mind you we are already talking about the miniscule sports car market and how many people in that market truly want to race or something harsh? Maybe 5/100? 5/1000? The same reason the ITR was non successful in the NA market, for every one of the dedicated enthusiasts who wants a race car for the street, 1000's do not and there are no enough of us to fund and offset the costs associated with such a project.

Well why would it be so expensive in your opinion? Full Blown can do it for 4.5k right? As a manufacturer, you have no idea how much red tape is surrounding each car! There is emissions, warranty, reputation, recalls, lawsuits, crash safety standards...etc, etc, etc. The list is endless. Why was the 350z so much heavier than the Rx8, despite being smaller in dimensions? Why is the Genesis so heavy? Torque. Torque brakes everything. You add torque to a car, a car mind you that they want to do no warranty work on for 5 years (because then any chance you have of making profit on the car is gone) and you need to beef up EVERYTHING. Suddenly, you need more clutch, bigger driveshafts, sturdier differential, bigger brakes...etc. Suddenly your turbo twin that was supposed to be a great car, is a 3200lb pig that has not playful spirit of its predecessor and the reason the original twin was selling so well. Boost adds more points of failure, extra heat and you would not believe the amount of testing and iterations that a manufacturer has to go through. You have to test in cold climates up north, in desert climates, in humid climates, for 100k+ and the entire time you are paying engineers, drivers...etc. Then you have to apply for emissions, tune for economy..etc. All those development costs are then passed unto the consumer. Suddenly the guy's who were shouting and crying for more power are backing away, "Well I would've paid 32k for a 270hp, 2800lb car, but 40k for that pig? Hell no, I would rather tune the base FRS...".

Not to mention the hierarchy within a manufacturer. The BRZ is a light, relatively quick car. Add a bit of power and tire and suddenly its competing and breathing down the neck of the STi and that is something no manufacturer wants.

This is an ENTRY level sports car and it will stay that way, the same reason the miata has been relatively successful. Because for every guy who wants to boost the miata, there are a 1000 who are content driving the car the way it is. You think the mazdaspeed miata was a profitable project? Hell no. That car only added what, 40hp? Via unreliable IHI turbos?

I am one of the guys who tracks and autox's. If I was working for Toyota I would never greenflag a project like this because I have seen this cry wolf scenario before.

I said in the first post this thread is not about whether Subaru/Toyota should have made the car with more power. As you said there are heaps of those threads already.

The thread is about the best way to modify the twin for more power and keep its wonderful handling. And if its possible

[Harey]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

But for each of those statements there have been counter ones that say the total opposite.

You are trying to make a topic that is subjective based upon personal opinion and make it black and white. The people that do some things may feel they made the car better while the next guy in line may feel they ruined it. The guy that slams a car to a 1/2 inch clearance doesn't think he ruined anything. The same applies to one that builds a 500 HP beast. If you just cherry pick the responses you want to hear and ignore everything else as "off topic" you may miss some very good information. All I am saying is you need to look at the whole picture not just a finely focused segment.

I understand handling can be subjective, but I think things like weight bias, track times, corner speeds are all things that are measurable and many drivers have measured before on a common track car like this.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Yoniyama

Last, but not least. Faster does not always require more power. Reducing weight by 100lb will also make the car faster and handle better at the same time.

^^At least someone that gets it right!

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Harey

I understand handling can be subjective, but I think things like weight bias, track times, corner speeds are all things that are measurable and many drivers have measured before on a common track car like this.

You cannot have a discussion with him. Forget it. He'll challenge measurements, race drivers and whatever else he doesn't like, even if this contradicts what is known after years of experience and the laws of physics.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

You cannot have a discussion with him. Forget it. He'll challenge measurements, race drivers and whatever else he doesn't like, even if this contradicts what is known after years of experience and the laws of physics.

That sounds more like you though ¿¿¿

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

You cannot have a discussion with him. Forget it. He'll challenge measurements, race drivers and whatever else he doesn't like, even if this contradicts what is known after years of experience and the laws of physics.

Oh you want to start again?


I will challenge false information no matter what the claimed/invented source is.


Your post is off topic. I was under the impression that you were the Topic Police.


It is also rude and unwarranted. Hypocrite.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Harey

I understand handling can be subjective, but I think things like weight bias, track times, corner speeds are all things that are measurable and many drivers have measured before on a common track car like this.

I missed seeing this until niki was kind enough to bring it up. Yes, agreed these things can be measured but that does not define a car as "ruined" or not. There are still some that will prefer one aspect over another and will say the guy that likes something else is dead wrong. That is why I don't think you will ever get a black and white answer to a very gray question.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by Yoniyama

Your caveat of "additional power does not add weight" is not feasible. Additional power will add weight (wider tyres, bigger brakes, larger driveshaft, larger radiator, bigger exhaust, bigger intake, etc). To maintain the balance of the car, even more weight will be added: bigger fuel tank (more power usually means greater fuel consumption), larger spare wheel, beefing up suspension, etc.

Fuel consumption will go up, as well as the cost and sales price.

Conclusion: any significant power increase will increase weight, cost, and fuel consumption.

Add an ACE header and tune. The header is lighter than original. Power increases by about 30-40 whp. No need for brakes, tires, shafts, any of what you counted up there. Fuel consumption does not go up under the same driving conditions.

Even with my JRSC kit, weight didn't increase more than ~40 lbs while power increased about 100 hp. None of the changes you mentioned was needed for normal driving. For the track, an oil cooler is necessary but it is necessary even for an NA. I upgraded with wider tires. But since I replaced with lighter wheels, there was no significant weight change either. Actually, I might have saved some but it is not worth mentioning. Handling is the same. Fuel consumption did not change in the same driving conditions either. I still get 29-30 mpg. That just left me with 100hp extra. Did it ruin my car?

Cut the nonsense, please