Next Gen BRZ/86!

[himbo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You can go back through the months and see that the sales of pretty much all "sporty" cars have dropped dramatically across the board in the last two years. The FRS/BRZ have actually held their ground far better than the majority of the list. Nothing to panic over but certainly shows that you need to look at all the numbers and not just one subset.

They're really not half bad. And from a marketing and branding perspective, both companies benefit from a platform like this.

I think that a next gen brz/gt86 with an updated motor will see some decent sales, and might attract buyers who thought the cars were too slow.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by himbo

They're really not half bad. And from a marketing ana branding perspective, both companies benefit from a platform like this.

I think that a next gen brz/gt86 with an updated motor will see some decent sales, and might attract buyers who thought the cars were too slow.

In many conversations with my dealer sales staff I have found that they have lost sales to many of the John and Jane driving public because during a test drive they accidentally kicked the rear out and scared themselves. For every sale that they gain from more power they will lose one for another average person that the car scares. There simply are not enough "enthusiasts" to go around for all the available cars. Without those "normal" buyers no car model will survive. The beauty of the Mustang is that they make many different power levels to appeal to many different groups. People always seem to focus on the high powered top levels but they represent about 2% of Mustang sales and are not what keeps it alive. If they really wanted to increase sales of the Twins (which I strongly doubt)they would need to offer at least two power levels to appease each group. That is not likely to happen. If they did offer a higher power engine it would push the price up to a point where the people that now complain about no power would just start saying "well I can get a Porsche for that" and still not buy. More power is not the answer to more sales contrary to what a vocal group would have us think.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

In many conversations with my dealer sales staff I have found that they have lost sales to many of the John and Jane driving public because during a test drive they accidentally kicked the rear out and scared themselves. For every sale that they gain from more power they will lose one for another average person that the car scares. There simply are not enough "enthusiasts" to go around for all the available cars.

While I agree with everything you've said, over the last few years, Subaru has de-emphasized "performance" cars. It looks like the next WRX will be fatter and plusher as that is what the majority of customers want. Looking at Subaru's development over the last few years, it sure looks like they are moving away from these performance cars and more towards safe, family, 4 wheel drive vehicles with good resale value. If that is the Subaru image of the future, it does not bode well for any major changes in the BRZ. I just purchased a new 2018 BRZ and I did test both it and the 86. It looked like Subaru wanted to make the BRZ look good and Toyota didn't care and just did the minimal. Remember, Toyota sells more 86's than Subaru sells BRZ's. Therefore, what's important here is what Toyota does with the 86 and not what is done to the BRZ.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by rvoll

While I agree with everything you've said, over the last few years, Subaru has de-emphasized "performance" cars. It looks like the next WRX will be fatter and plusher as that is what the majority of customers want. Looking at Subaru's development over the last few years, it sure looks like they are moving away from these performance cars and more towards safe, family, 4 wheel drive vehicles with good resale value. If that is the Subaru image of the future, it does not bode well for any major changes in the BRZ. I just purchased a new 2018 BRZ and I did test both it and the 86. It looked like Subaru wanted to make the BRZ look good and Toyota didn't care and just did the minimal. Remember, Toyota sells more 86's than Subaru sells BRZ's. Therefore, what's important here is what Toyota does with the 86 and not what is done to the BRZ.

Subaru and Toyota know this is a niche car and it isn't going to sell the most units. They are capitalizing on a market where the only other car is the Miata. I think the car will stay true to form, or it will not exist at all.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

If they did offer a higher power engine it would push the price up to a point where the people that now complain about no power would just start saying "well I can get a Porsche for that" and still not buy. More power is not the answer to more sales contrary to what a vocal group would have us think.

Most people here won't even look the BRZ, because they have more money and will go for the Porsche's. However, these people don't really know and it is more about placing their money somewhere and have a better prestige than really driving their car. I was also looking to the Porsche's as my next "project" car and I said "it doesn't worth it". It is a very closed platform, you need to invest much more money to modify, maintenance is silly expensive and the results not that impressive. Tim Schrick who is local and he is also with the Subaru team in Nurburgring 24h owns two BRZs! One dedicated for racing and one for private usage. He has many other cars in his private collection, but basically classic ones. He should know better ...

[why?]

if they really wanted more sales they would strip the car to the bone. Both for weight but more for cost. Put in a lower level that has more parts from the base impreza, including the engine, the brakes, the wheels, etc. The less expensive they can make a starter version of the car the more they can sell.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by rvoll

- Therefore, what's important here is what Toyota does with the 86 and not what is done to the BRZ.

Keep in mind that the Twins' chief engineer, Tetsuya Tada, is from Toyota. A lot of the hardware is Subaru or Subaru derived, but direction comes from Toyota. Tada also heads the Supra development. He's back as chief engineer for the 2nd gen 86 and I'm sure gets direction from Akio Toyoda. Akio recently made them significantly revise the Supra chassis setup quite late in the development because he didn't think it was exciting enough to drive.

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Subaru and Toyota know this is a niche car and it isn't going to sell the most units. They are capitalizing on a market where the only other car is the Miata. I think the car will stay true to form, or it will not exist at all.

I think this is accurate. They already have a plushier, bigger sports car in the upcoming Supra. The 86 will stay relatively hardcore like the first gen, or perish in the shadow of the Supra altogether.


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[NCtoBRZ]

Originally Posted by rvoll

While I agree with everything you've said, over the last few years, Subaru has de-emphasized "performance" cars. It looks like the next WRX will be fatter and plusher as that is what the majority of customers want. Looking at Subaru's development over the last few years, it sure looks like they are moving away from these performance cars and more towards safe, family, 4 wheel drive vehicles with good resale value. If that is the Subaru image of the future, it does not bode well for any major changes in the BRZ. I just purchased a new 2018 BRZ and I did test both it and the 86. It looked like Subaru wanted to make the BRZ look good and Toyota didn't care and just did the minimal. Remember, Toyota sells more 86's than Subaru sells BRZ's. Therefore, what's important here is what Toyota does with the 86 and not what is done to the BRZ.

Over the last few years??? Performance cars have never been Subaru’s primary image or concern, just more of a side project just like most non-prestige brands. Neither Toyota nor Subaru sell enough 86s or BRZs (nor did they think they would sell them in numbers anywhere close to their family vehicle models) to make these vehicles very high on their priority list. If Subaru is able to continue to grow and thrive from the sales of their family oriented vehicles, that will only give them more money to potentially invest in future performance vehicle side projects... they will never thrive based on the niche market that buys cars like the BRZ.
While Toyota has sold more 86s than Subaru has sold BRZs, Toyota is a much higher volume seller of ALL of their models of vehicles than Subaru... so I’m fairly certain that the BRZ actually makes up a higher percentage of Subaru’s total sales than the 86 does of Toyota’s total sales. Subaru is growing rapidly but they are still nowhere near the volume of Toyota.

[NCtoBRZ]

Originally Posted by why?

if they really wanted more sales they would strip the car to the bone. Both for weight but more for cost. Put in a lower level that has more parts from the base impreza, including the engine, the brakes, the wheels, etc. The less expensive they can make a starter version of the car the more they can sell.

What more do you think they could strip out compared to the base model twins (which are already pretty sparsely equipped compared to most any other car) that would make any significant difference in price? It’s not like they could ever make these cars cheap enough to compete on price with something like a base model civic.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by NCtoBRZ

What more do you think they could strip out compared to the base model twins (which are already pretty sparsely equipped compared to most any other car) that would make any significant difference in price? It’s not like they could ever make these cars cheap enough to compete on price with something like a base model civic.

The GT86 RC cut the price down to 1.9 millionYen from 2.41 million and lost 100 lbs compared to the base US model:
Steel wheels, unpainted bumpers, cheaper interior, no exhaust tips, etc. The dash trim is straight up missing 🤣




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[rvoll]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Keep in mind that the Twins' chief engineer, Tetsuya Tada, is from Toyota. A lot of the hardware is Subaru or Subaru derived, but direction comes from Toyota. Tada also heads the Supra development. He's back as chief engineer for the 2nd gen 86 and I'm sure gets direction from Akio Toyoda. Akio recently made them significantly revise the Supra chassis setup quite late in the development because he didn't think it was exciting enough to drive.

Now if I were Toyota, I'd replace the 86 with a base model Supra costing $5-10k more than the current Limited model. This has been Porsches approach for many years and maximized the production and parts aspects. The Corvette (which will be mid-engined for 2020), is also marketed this way. Again, if Toyota moves in this direction, which makes all of the sense in the world, I'm just not convinced that the BRZ could exist on its own. If it does in this circumstance, they would just continue to make minor changes and continue to depreciate plant and equipment.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by why?

if they really wanted more sales they would strip the car to the bone. Both for weight but more for cost. Put in a lower level that has more parts from the base impreza, including the engine, the brakes, the wheels, etc. The less expensive they can make a starter version of the car the more they can sell.

Then people like me would not have even considered the car and it would not come close to competing with the MX-5. I want a few creature comforts in the car. My guess is that well over half of the BRZ buyers are like me. The hard core enthusiasts, who would want a stripped down car, would be in the extreme minority. Remember, people who inhabit forums like this are the car nuts and not the vast majority of buyers.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Now if I were Toyota, I'd replace the 86 with a base model Supra costing $5-10k more than the current Limited model. This has been Porsches approach for many years and maximized the production and parts aspects. The Corvette (which will be mid-engined for 2020), is also marketed this way. Again, if Toyota moves in this direction, which makes all of the sense in the world, I'm just not convinced that the BRZ could exist on its own. If it does in this circumstance, they would just continue to make minor changes and continue to depreciate plant and equipment.

How "cheap" do you think the new Supra is going to be? You do know that Toyota partnered with BMW and it is being co-developed with the new Z4.

If it can't meet the sub $30K mark, it won't exist. Toyota has a much better dealer network as well, most likely the reason that 86 sales are better then the BRZ's. I have 2 Subaru dealers within 45 miles of me, one is right at the edge of that range too. There are 5 Toyota dealers in that same range.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

How "cheap" do you think the new Supra is going to be? You do know that Toyota partnered with BMW and it is being co-developed with the new Z4.

If it can't meet the sub $30K mark, it won't exist. Toyota has a much better dealer network as well, most likely the reason that 86 sales are better then the BRZ's. I have 2 Subaru dealers within 45 miles of me, one is right at the edge of that range too. There are 5 Toyota dealers in that same range.

The key here is manufacturing economies. When Subaru makes the Twins, the added volume lowers per unit cost. The same would be true for a "cheap" Supra. All large car manufacturers try to leverage "platforms". Many times you can find a very wide price range for cars with the same platform. You may market the lower cost car with a different model name, but it would be the same platform. Toyota does this very well across their brands/models. I could easily see a low cost "Supra", or whatever they might call it, going for $35-40k with the high end Supra running $50-80k.