Is building a motor necessary for FI on this motor?

[tyler_win_photo]

Originally Posted by Barefootdan

Is water/meth injection a possibility with the PD blowers? Or is it going to ruin the coating of the rotors?

From what I understand from many different water meth injection system companies, they say it should be safe. It may deteriorate the coating on non anodized rotors a little quicker, but the coating itself is designed to wear over time anyways.

[Xxyion]

I had the same though that the immediate throttle response was what i wanted for this car and therefore i went with the Edelbrock.

Personally, i actually felt it ruined the car. There was almost too much response. Because you are hitting boost right from the get go its just push and go. The difference for me with that and NA is that with NA, theres immediate response, however theres a smoothness to it. The edelbrock response was like a humming bird, immediete and jerky. NA for me is like a snake, also immediate, but theres this gliding smooth feeling to it.

I think if i were to do it all over again i'd go with a turbo. But if i had to do a Supercharger i'd go with the Jackson Racing SC. The Jackson has the advantage of feeling like stock (just with a tad more power) under 5k RPMS, but once you pass that point its like a rocket. It's also CARB legal.

Also have you joined the Sac86 facebook group? We have a few members that have various kits (including the WORKS turbo) and i'm sure they would be more than happy to give you a ridealong.

[ThatAsianBradah]

If you like the NA feeling with the power of boost, get a CARB P/D Supercharger.

Centrifugal is a good balance between a P/D and Turbo. It's easier to maintain than a turbo, but gives you much power when you push it in the high side of the power band.

For me, I daily my 86 and I have an Edelbrock SC. I'm planning to put a quality EL Header so that my mid range and top end power and can be utilized whenever I do drags or I need to do some quick speeding on the freeway.

For our cars, 290-310whp is a perfect range for our cars and easily capable if you have any form of FI + full aftermarket exhaust + custom tune.

Then again, I forget if you have to get a CARB tune or if you have strict emissions laws. Regardless, you'll be happy with any performance upgrades that you pursue!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Except, there have been almost as many stock and NA cars that have failed... including mine.

No, instead, the most likely culprit is a lack of proper quality control on the rods. There are some exceptionally weak rods coming through on some of these engines and THAT is the crap shoot and why some cars can be fine at close to 400whp and some fail completely stock.

Jaden

I guess that makes sense. If the rods sucked then they would have significantly changed them for the 2017 model, and they didn't change much, right? And how much smaller are they, than say, the STI's rods? Pretty similar? So just bad quality control on the metallurgy or something.

Originally Posted by tyler_win_photo

The AVO turbo kit looks extremely stock. The only thing is it doesn't come with a CARB legal tune.

300whp is actually quite a bit for this platform. And 400whp is just plain scary in terms of how quick it is. Try riding in a local's boosted twin and you'll quickly find out that 300whp is more than enough.

You shouldn't need to build the engine to run a carb legal tune. And even with e85, you shouldn't need to build the engine and you'd still be hitting 350whp easy.

Have you considered water and meth? It doesn't really get talked about too much on these forums, but it is another alternative to run more boost.

I do like the AVO kit, but California, enough said.

I'm probably going to be happy sub 300whp, especially for the street, but I don't know if too many people refrain from upping the power when they build their motor. Maybe some intend to just add security and reliability, but then say maybe just a little more. I think 400whp or higher would be just silly with such a light car. It was more a statement of possibilities than a goal.

I haven't considered it. I figured it would be more complicated than E85, especially to remove for smog or to hide from anyone popping my hood.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Xxyion

I had the same though that the immediate throttle response was what i wanted for this car and therefore i went with the Edelbrock.

Personally, i actually felt it ruined the car. There was almost too much response. Because you are hitting boost right from the get go its just push and go. The difference for me with that and NA is that with NA, theres immediate response, however theres a smoothness to it. The edelbrock response was like a humming bird, immediete and jerky. NA for me is like a snake, also immediate, but theres this gliding smooth feeling to it.

I think if i were to do it all over again i'd go with a turbo. But if i had to do a Supercharger i'd go with the Jackson Racing SC. The Jackson has the advantage of feeling like stock (just with a tad more power) under 5k RPMS, but once you pass that point its like a rocket. It's also CARB legal.

Also have you joined the Sac86 facebook group? We have a few members that have various kits (including the WORKS turbo) and i'm sure they would be more than happy to give you a ridealong.

I hear you. Instant torque can be like an on and off switch with a heavy foot. A flat torque curve is theoretically better, but some do like the feeling of a gradually, building, torque curve. It can be less intrusive at lower rpms, and there is a feeling of a jerk (in physics, a change in acceleration over time) that can feel more exhilarating because it is progressive, instead of fixed like a flat torque curve. The 86 has that jerk when it is increasing in the rate of acceleration as torque builds coming out of the torque dip. Ultimately, I like a flat curve and modulating the build of acceleration myself, instead of mashing the gas and waiting for whatever is going to happen.

I don't have any social media like FB, IG, T, etc.

Originally Posted by ThatAsianBradah

If you like the NA feeling with the power of boost, get a CARB P/D Supercharger.

Centrifugal is a good balance between a P/D and Turbo. It's easier to maintain than a turbo, but gives you much power when you push it in the high side of the power band.

For me, I daily my 86 and I have an Edelbrock SC. I'm planning to put a quality EL Header so that my mid range and top end power and can be utilized whenever I do drags or I need to do some quick speeding on the freeway.

For our cars, 290-310whp is a perfect range for our cars and easily capable if you have any form of FI + full aftermarket exhaust + custom tune.

Then again, I forget if you have to get a CARB tune or if you have strict emissions laws. Regardless, you'll be happy with any performance upgrades that you pursue!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I think the plan is to not build the motor, to do a flex fuel setup and clutch this summer then later get the Harrop kit when they go CARB legal. I'll run the CARB tune for the street and smog, and a flex setup and DT when I can make it to an E85 pump for slightly more power, but not switching pulleys or anything crazy.

[WORKS]

Really good questions!

Our shop car w/ our CARB legal stage 2 turbo kit has done about 50 drift days and another two dozen track days.... on a stock motor. We run it on E85 when on track, and make about 310 whp. These motors are great as long as you make sure you have a way to keep the oil temps/pressure in check, and watch a few other key items.

We like that you're striving for a clean setup. We do the same with our kits.



by the way... we're right around the corner from you. Our shop is located at Sonoma Raceway. Come by and we'll give you a test ride in our car if you have a chance

[Irace86.2.0]

Thanks for the offer. Is your shop open during events? I’m going to be there for the drags in July. I’ll see if I can make it sooner.

Still puzzled how no manufacturer makes a FI car with high compression (except for maybe Infinity with their variable compression engine), yet everyone says it is ok for this car, yet at the same time everyone says how week the motor is, so which is it?

[Swift]

I am pretty sure all the newer small cars/crossovers with turbos are running higher compression. An engineering magazine I get once and a while even was saying 3yrs ago how much more FEA and engineering has to go into the pistons to withstand the pressure.

Another thing most dont understand is by going turbo VS high-revving NA is that you have less forces acting on rods/pistons at 4k rpm with 10psi of boost versus 8krpm NA.

[Hades]

Originally Posted by WORKS

Really good questions!

Our shop car w/ our CARB legal stage 2 turbo kit has done about 50 drift days and another two dozen track days.... on a stock motor. We run it on E85 when on track, and make about 310 whp. These motors are great as long as you make sure you have a way to keep the oil temps/pressure in check, and watch a few other key items...

Did you have to do anything else to prep your cars for the track at the stock turbo level? What oil cooler are you using on the track?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Swift

I am pretty sure all the newer small cars/crossovers with turbos are running higher compression. An engineering magazine I get once and a while even was saying 3yrs ago how much more FEA and engineering has to go into the pistons to withstand the pressure.

Another thing most dont understand is by going turbo VS high-revving NA is that you have less forces acting on rods/pistons at 4k rpm with 10psi of boost versus 8krpm NA.

Higher than turbo motors of the past, but not 12.5:1. The 1.5T in the Hondas have 10.3-10.6 compression--the lower compression is on the higher boosted versions like the Civic SI has the 10.3:1 version.

Good point because FI on the 86 means boost, high compression and 7400 redline too.

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I was reading Mazda's webpage on the Skyactiv engine and noticed them talking about high compression causing a decrease in torque (looks like torque dip) because of knock avoidance. Knock was the result of exhaust gases causing high temperatures at low rpms.

This makes it seem like tuning out the torque dip alone could be dangerous, but it confirms that increasing the speed of exhaust gas removal through a good header along with a tune would be best. This is probably why the torque dip exists on the 86 and why a header fixes it. The article mentions that decreasing exhaust gases can lead to poor emissions because of cooler exhaust gases getting to the catalytic converter, which is why Subaru and Toyota hasn't fixed the issue...because they can't with sacrificing emissions.

http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/t...iv/skyactiv-g/

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Really wonder if we could compile a data sheet with information on blown motors:

If the NA motors blew then what was blown; what were the mods (stock, headers, quality tuned, e85); was heat management a factor and what mods; what was the car doing or had been doing (daily driver vs track car); what was the quality of the maintenance (synthetic vs conventional, DIY vs jiffy lube questionable)?

For FI, same questions, but also: what was the boost level; what type of boost/kit (PDSC, CSC, turbo, etc); was the motor built, and if so what was done; what was the power?

I'm still under the suspicion that bad quality control on the rods are not to blame. I still feel like the major culprit is premature ignition/knock/detonation whatever. Seems like 12.5:1 is a recipe for disaster without a really conservative tune, heat management and good knock prevention (in the tune or e85).

[Harey]

Originally Posted by Swift

Another thing most dont understand is by going turbo VS high-revving NA is that you have less forces acting on rods/pistons at 4k rpm with 10psi of boost versus 8krpm NA.

I dont agree with that, there are more forces on the rods/pistons at low rpm as there is more time under stress. A turbo running at 10psi at 4k would have more forces acting on the rods/pistons than an N/A setup at redline.

High rpm introduces other issues such as valve float etc but not higher forces on rods/pistons.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Harey

I dont agree with that, there are more forces on the rods/pistons at low rpm as there is more time under stress. A turbo running at 10psi at 4k would have more forces acting on the rods/pistons than an N/A setup at redline.

High rpm introduces other issues such as valve float etc but not higher forces on rods/pistons.

Forces are also an issue. I don’t know what is higher but motors with an over-stroked design would disinergrate from the stresses at high rpms. Our motor is square so it can rev high. Motors with higher redlines have under-stroked designs because Force = Mass x Acceleration, so a long stroke would require significantly more acceleration to rev high versus a motor with a short stroke.

[WORKS]

We're not typically open during larger events like NHRA since the track uses every bit of the facility for parking, but give us a call. We may have our car on display.

We're about 25 minutes from Santa Rosa.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Thanks for the offer. Is your shop open during events? I’m going to be there for the drags in July. I’ll see if I can make it sooner.

Still puzzled how no manufacturer makes a FI car with high compression (except for maybe Infinity with their variable compression engine), yet everyone says it is ok for this car, yet at the same time everyone says how week the motor is, so which is it?

[WORKS]

Originally Posted by Hades

Did you have to do anything else to prep your cars for the track at the stock turbo level? What oil cooler are you using on the track?

No other engine mods to prep it for the track at the stock turbo level besides the oil cooler. We sell our own oil cooler kit.