When will we start to see camo mules and real news about the next model - Page 4 - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

NARFALICIOUS · 02-13-2018, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

In regards to weight, I have to wonder if it's even possible to build a production car under 3,000lbs any longer. I couldn't find more recent specs, but according to this article from the NTHSA between 1968 and 2012 the weight of mandatory safety equipment went from 10lbs to 171 pounds (an over 1600% increase), not to mention the $1,900 in cost (see table below).

That doesn't include "Convenience" features we all demand as standard now (A/C, electric windows, cup holders, advanced radio systems, cruise control, etc) that were not standard on 1968 cars.

Do you have any issues with the safety equipment?
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/ge...fatality-facts

I'm more concerned with the convenience features. I could do without a/c and power windows.
Cup holders and cruise control weigh nothing nowadays.

PetrolioBenzina · 02-13-2018, 10:59 AM

Said it before, say it again (and I know Scion was Toyota). Once it became a Toyota in NA it doomed the car. Whatever the last gen of it turns out to be, it will a pig compared to the fist gen.

Tcoat · 02-13-2018, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PetrolioBenzina

Said it before, say it again (and I know Scion was Toyota). Once it became a Toyota in NA it doomed the car. Whatever the last gen of it turns out to be, it will a pig compared to the fist gen.

Nah. As long as there is a base trim it is exactly what it would have been as a Scion. The only change that the Toyota badge brought was different trim levels. You place far more importance on the Scion badge then it had.

MRCA1ST · 02-13-2018, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NARFALICIOUS

Do you have any issues with the safety equipment?
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/ge...fatality-facts

I'm more concerned with the convenience features. I could do without a/c and power windows.
Cup holders and cruise control weigh nothing nowadays.

I have an issue with the mandated safety equipment over the past few decades, all that crap is primarily responsible for the increased price, weight and size of vehicles across the board. Seatbelts are about where the common sense intervention of the gov't began and ended - even forcing people to wear them is BS IMO.

I could do without some of the other extra crap too, especially power windows. My perfect twin would leave the power windows, ABS, airbags, TPMS and rearview camera boxes unchecked on the order sheet.

HKz · 02-13-2018, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tcoat

MKV
Wheelbase 2,470 mm (97.2 in)
Length 4380 mm (172.4 in)
Width 1855 mm (73 in)
Height 1,290 mm (50.8 in)
Curb weight 1,496 kg (3,284 lb)
Engine: 3.0L turbo inline-six with 335 hp and 332 lb-ft, plus 37 lb-ft overboot.
Transmission: 8 speed auto transmission.
Tires: 225/50/17 front, 255/45/17 rear

Quote:

Originally Posted by A70TTR@supramkv.com

Curb weight is flat out wrong by a lot

...we'll see

NOHOME · 02-13-2018, 11:51 AM

In reply to DadHawk

See "Mazda Miata"

What the "not enough power" whiners are missing about the Twins is that the low weight IS the cars super power. You can get a pig to go around a corner, hence witness the new Corvettes, but it will not give the same sensory feedback as a low weight car going around the same corner. This is something that an engineer by the name of Colin Chapman figured out a long time ago.

And you also bring up the reason for why the twins don't have more power. Adding more power from the factory triggers the avalanche of additional engineering margins and safety features that add weigh and cost to manufacture plus cost to operate.

The twins were designed to slot into a market segment in which there is zero competition. This eludes most people since I see it compared to the Genesis and the Mustang and even the Miata. But those arguments miss the point. The gamble that ToyoBaru took was whether there were enough buyers in the low-weight-4 seat-reasonable-power-affordable-great handling chassis niche to make it a financial success and not just a monument to the engineers. I don't know the answer to that, but I am grateful that I got to participate in the experiment.

PetrolioBenzina · 02-13-2018, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Nah. As long as there is a base trim it is exactly what it would have been as a Scion. The only change that the Toyota badge brought was different trim levels. You place far more importance on the Scion badge then it had.

No, I place no importance on the Scion badge. Neither did Toyota, which is the point. Toyota will "improve" it right into the ground.

Tcoat · 02-13-2018, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PetrolioBenzina

No, I place no importance on the Scion badge. Neither did Toyota, which is the point. Toyota will "improve" it right into the ground.

The same "improvements" would have happened anyway. Scion never had any say it what happened to the car.

Dadhawk · 02-13-2018, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NARFALICIOUS

Do you have any issues with the safety equipment?
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/ge...fatality-facts.

Most no, just saying it adds up. Basically before you even start designing a car you know its going to weigh 200lbs and cost $2,000.

I do have a problem with such mandated features as backup cameras that, yes, do add to safety but really how much?

Dadhawk · 02-13-2018, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOHOME

In reply to DadHawk

See "Mazda Miata"...

Ugm...no thanks. I remain in the contrarian club when it comes to Miatas.

But, yes, if you cut the roof off, remove the back seats (useful or not) and make it small enough you can get under 3,000lbs. My favorite car (MK1 MR2) was 2,300lbs, and would still be less than 3,000 now.

bkharmony · 02-13-2018, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spuds

Well, when you increase torque, you need to beef up the chassis to handle it, which adds weight. That weight necessitates further increase in beefing up the chassis, brakes and safety-related structural bits.

This is precisely why they haven't added a turbo to the FT86. I'm going to save this for the next time someone brings it up.

Dadhawk · 02-13-2018, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkharmony

This is precisely why they haven't added a turbo to the FT86. I'm going to save this for the next time someone brings it up.

And time for me to drag this out, because it shows exactly how this really works on production cars....

Ehokana · 02-13-2018, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

And time for me to drag this out, because it shows exactly how this really works on production cars....

Great... now I miss my 951. Thanks

Tcoat · 02-13-2018, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ehokana

Great... now I miss my 951. Thanks

I hope there was more to it than that.

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02-13-2018, 10:59 AM	#44
PetrolioBenzina Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Drives: 17 86 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 75 Thanked 1,133 Times in 647 Posts Mentioned: 10 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Said it before, say it again (and I know Scion was Toyota). Once it became a Toyota in NA it doomed the car. Whatever the last gen of it turns out to be, it will a pig compared to the fist gen.

02-13-2018, 11:51 AM	#48
NOHOME Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Drives: RAVEN Location: LONDON ONTARIO Posts: 787 Thanks: 86 Thanked 786 Times in 341 Posts Mentioned: 12 Post(s) Tagged: 2 Thread(s)	In reply to DadHawk See "Mazda Miata" What the "not enough power" whiners are missing about the Twins is that the low weight IS the cars super power. You can get a pig to go around a corner, hence witness the new Corvettes, but it will not give the same sensory feedback as a low weight car going around the same corner. This is something that an engineer by the name of Colin Chapman figured out a long time ago. And you also bring up the reason for why the twins don't have more power. Adding more power from the factory triggers the avalanche of additional engineering margins and safety features that add weigh and cost to manufacture plus cost to operate. The twins were designed to slot into a market segment in which there is zero competition. This eludes most people since I see it compared to the Genesis and the Mustang and even the Miata. But those arguments miss the point. The gamble that ToyoBaru took was whether there were enough buyers in the low-weight-4 seat-reasonable-power-affordable-great handling chassis niche to make it a financial success and not just a monument to the engineers. I don't know the answer to that, but I am grateful that I got to participate in the experiment.

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