Scion Pure Price Haggling?

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by Norcalscionchamp

...Now that I have graduated I will be going to law school, but first I'm working for Toyota for a while to put my wife through dental hygiene school...so that we can pay for my law degree...

Think long and hard about law school. The legal profession is saturated in CA, and unless you are going to a state school, you will have 150K in loans when you graduate...

I left my firm because I got tired of the insane workload (6-7 days a week/10-12 hours a day) and crap compensation (relatively speaking).

Not trying to dissuade you, just be certain it is truly what you wish to do...

[fistpoint]

Originally Posted by alluringreality

I'm not sure why you seem to think the car costs the dealership invoice, but Truecar lists profit on the FR-S sold at MSRP over $1700.

I don't know where you are seeing that, I see almost no info for the FR-S except MSRP and what others are paying on that site? TrueCar is a scam anyway(look it up).

The dealer invoice according to everybody else on the net is $23720 after $730 destination fee. Some regions have a slightly higher fee($780 for example). But using the standard fee of $730 and the MSRP(before regional adjustment) is $24930. That is $1210 exactly.

If the MSRP on a bone stock manual FR-S is slightly higher, it's because of the area you live and a slightly higher destination fee. We're talking less than a $100 difference though. Anything more is dealer added BS.

Scion also has no "dealer holdback"...supposedly. Normally a 2-3% kickback that is the sole reason any of us ever get cars slightly over invoice in the first place, let alone below invoice when they have to clear out last years models. On a $25k vehicle that is $500-$750 additional negotiating dollars that we no longer have access to as a buyer. However, it still means you're paying $450-$700+ over invoice once the absent holdback has been factored in.

[Chewie4299]

Originally Posted by Thanntos

Could I ask what you mean/how? I am planning on doing a trade in of my 03's RSX (great condition, 67k miles) and I'd REALLY like to know/get some tips on what you meant by this and how? Right now I am looking at a KBB value of 7500-8k on it. I still owe about 4k though.

Check KBB and NADA guides (google it) print both sets of pricing and be honest with yourself about the condition of your car.

Then look at prices for vehicles similar to yours being sold by dealerships and private sellers. I located about 6 between Carmax, 3 dealers, and 2 private sellers for my Jeep all with roughly the same miles and options. Print these too.

This gives you a good idea of what the dealer can expect to price the car at after reconditioning. Don't ask for these prices as you'll never get it. You take a hit for the convenience of the trade in as the dealership needs to make money on the deal or it's not worth their time.

Additionally, get Carmax to appraise your vehicle. Sometimes they'll surprise you and make it really easy. You can sell your car to them without buying one in return if you like their offer. You can also use their printed offer as a bargaining chip to see if the dealership will beat it.

In my case I actually never whipped out my Carmax appraisal because it ended up being low but your mileage may vary on this.

Here's my example....

I was buying a Scion FR-S. Pure price means the price is the price. I had a 2006 Jeep Wrangler X with a few solid options in good condition with low mileage. I owed $1.5k on the car. Private sellers were getting ~$16k. Dealers and Carmax were getting ~$17.5-$19k. Carmax appraised it at $11k. KBB and NADA valued it as a 'fair' condition trade at ~$12.5-$14k.

When I went to my Toyota dealership and I realized I was not going to get any movement on price for the new car I let them know I'd be trading in. Typically it's best to nail down a price and THEN introduce the trade. Negotiate the two separately because when you put more on the table the dealer then has more to work with to eek out profit.

The sales guy got my keys to their used car guy to look the car over and then came to talk to me while we waited. I had a notebook, calculator, binder and folders with all my printed research in it out in front of me in the showroom constantly working out numbers to myself but not letting them see anything I hadn't already laid out for them EXCEPT my BRZ research. I wanted the to know that I was considering the other option and I mentioned my dealings with a couple of Subie dealerships many times. This helps let them know they need to give up a little more on the trade to capture the sale as I'm not 100% sold yet. He asked my what I was looking for on my trade so I sifted through my folder and pulled out my NADA printout (NADA valued my car a little higher than KBB) and handed it to him. He took it with him to work up numbers.

They came back to me with an offer of $12k. I was a bit surprised by this so I put down a REFUNDABLE deposit on the car I wanted but DID NOT sign a sales agreement and left it at that for a couple days. Then, when the sales guy emailed me to say they were having trouble locating the car I wanted but had a similar (different color) one coming in that they wanted to know if I'd consider I replied with more than they expected. I said I would look at thew new color when it came in and consider it but that I had also been reviewing the numbers and trying to get my payments where I want them. I told them that I needed a little flexibility on my trade in order to make the deal happen. I again included the NADA data showing roughly $14k for my trade and said that's where I was aiming. In reality I only wanted/needed another $500-$1k on my trade to be happy but you have to shoot for double if you want to land there.

In the end I got $12.5k for my trade which I was happy with because it got my payments where I wanted them, saved me tax money, and I didn't have to go through the pain of working out a private sale. They made out well on the deal as they'll likely make several grand when they sell it and I'm okay with that. It makes no sense for them to be selling cars if they can't make money.

[Chewie4299]

Originally Posted by Chewie4299

Check KBB and NADA guides (google it) print both sets of pricing and be honest with yourself about the condition of your car.

Then look at prices for vehicles similar to yours being sold by dealerships and private sellers. I located about 6 between Carmax, 3 dealers, and 2 private sellers for my Jeep all with roughly the same miles and options. Print these too.

This gives you a good idea of what the dealer can expect to price the car at after reconditioning. Don't ask for these prices as you'll never get it. You take a hit for the convenience of the trade in as the dealership needs to make money on the deal or it's not worth their time.

Additionally, get Carmax to appraise your vehicle. Sometimes they'll surprise you and make it really easy. You can sell your car to them without buying one in return if you like their offer. You can also use their printed offer as a bargaining chip to see if the dealership will beat it.

In my case I actually never whipped out my Carmax appraisal because it ended up being low but your mileage may vary on this.

Here's my example....

I was buying a Scion FR-S. Pure price means the price is the price. I had a 2006 Jeep Wrangler X with a few solid options in good condition with low mileage. I owed $1.5k on the car. Private sellers were getting ~$16k. Dealers and Carmax were getting ~$17.5-$19k. Carmax appraised it at $11k. KBB and NADA valued it as a 'fair' condition trade at ~$12.5-$14k.

When I went to my Toyota dealership and I realized I was not going to get any movement on price for the new car I let them know I'd be trading in. Typically it's best to nail down a price and THEN introduce the trade. Negotiate the two separately because when you put more on the table the dealer then has more to work with to eek out profit.

The sales guy got my keys to their used car guy to look the car over and then came to talk to me while we waited. I had a notebook, calculator, binder and folders with all my printed research in it out in front of me in the showroom constantly working out numbers to myself but not letting them see anything I hadn't already laid out for them EXCEPT my BRZ research. I wanted the to know that I was considering the other option and I mentioned my dealings with a couple of Subie dealerships many times. This helps let them know they need to give up a little more on the trade to capture the sale as I'm not 100% sold yet. He asked my what I was looking for on my trade so I sifted through my folder and pulled out my NADA printout (NADA valued my car a little higher than KBB) and handed it to him. He took it with him to work up numbers.

They came back to me with an offer of $12k. I was a bit surprised by this so I put down a REFUNDABLE deposit on the car I wanted but DID NOT sign a sales agreement and left it at that for a couple days. Then, when the sales guy emailed me to say they were having trouble locating the car I wanted but had a similar (different color) one coming in that they wanted to know if I'd consider I replied with more than they expected. I said I would look at thew new color when it came in and consider it but that I had also been reviewing the numbers and trying to get my payments where I want them. I told them that I needed a little flexibility on my trade in order to make the deal happen. I again included the NADA data showing roughly $14k for my trade and said that's where I was aiming. In reality I only wanted/needed another $500-$1k on my trade to be happy but you have to shoot for double if you want to land there.

In the end I got $12.5k for my trade which I was happy with because it got my payments where I wanted them, saved me tax money, and I didn't have to go through the pain of working out a private sale. They made out well on the deal as they'll likely make several grand when they sell it and I'm okay with that. It makes no sense for them to be selling cars if they can't make money.

Hmm... actually they've priced it lower than I expected. It needed 4 tires and the paint on the front end needed some TLC. Aside from that it was in very good condition. I expect they probably put close to $1k in it before putting it up for sale.

http://www.wow-toyota.com/used/Jeep/...d649011522.htm

[alluringreality]

Originally Posted by fistpoint

I don't know where you are seeing that

Truecar lists dealer cost as being below invoice price. The price of the car less dealer cost would be dealer profit.

Scion also has no "dealer holdback"...supposedly.

The Edmunds holdback listing supports this statement. I don't believe they try to track all dealer kickbacks, and the relevant quote from Edmunds is:

"However, the standard dealer holdback is not the only form of financial assistance provided to dealers by manufacturers."

On a quick search I was unable to find the Toyota employee price that someone posted to the forum, but I believe it supports my suggestion that dealer cost is likely below invoice, which would mean dealer profit is more than $1300 for the FR-S sold at MSRP.

[alluringreality]

Originally Posted by Chewie4299

Check KBB and NADA guides

Personally I also check Black Book pricing using Clearbook.com and aim for whichever is most in my favor.

[Thanntos]

Originally Posted by Chewie4299

Check KBB and NADA guides (google it) print both sets of pricing and be honest with yourself about the condition of your car.

Then look at prices for vehicles similar to yours being sold by dealerships and private sellers. I located about 6 between Carmax, 3 dealers, and 2 private sellers for my Jeep all with roughly the same miles and options. Print these too.

This gives you a good idea of what the dealer can expect to price the car at after reconditioning. Don't ask for these prices as you'll never get it. You take a hit for the convenience of the trade in as the dealership needs to make money on the deal or it's not worth their time.

Additionally, get Carmax to appraise your vehicle. Sometimes they'll surprise you and make it really easy. You can sell your car to them without buying one in return if you like their offer. You can also use their printed offer as a bargaining chip to see if the dealership will beat it.

In my case I actually never whipped out my Carmax appraisal because it ended up being low but your mileage may vary on this.

Here's my example....

I was buying a Scion FR-S. Pure price means the price is the price. I had a 2006 Jeep Wrangler X with a few solid options in good condition with low mileage. I owed $1.5k on the car. Private sellers were getting ~$16k. Dealers and Carmax were getting ~$17.5-$19k. Carmax appraised it at $11k. KBB and NADA valued it as a 'fair' condition trade at ~$12.5-$14k.

When I went to my Toyota dealership and I realized I was not going to get any movement on price for the new car I let them know I'd be trading in. Typically it's best to nail down a price and THEN introduce the trade. Negotiate the two separately because when you put more on the table the dealer then has more to work with to eek out profit.

The sales guy got my keys to their used car guy to look the car over and then came to talk to me while we waited. I had a notebook, calculator, binder and folders with all my printed research in it out in front of me in the showroom constantly working out numbers to myself but not letting them see anything I hadn't already laid out for them EXCEPT my BRZ research. I wanted the to know that I was considering the other option and I mentioned my dealings with a couple of Subie dealerships many times. This helps let them know they need to give up a little more on the trade to capture the sale as I'm not 100% sold yet. He asked my what I was looking for on my trade so I sifted through my folder and pulled out my NADA printout (NADA valued my car a little higher than KBB) and handed it to him. He took it with him to work up numbers.

They came back to me with an offer of $12k. I was a bit surprised by this so I put down a REFUNDABLE deposit on the car I wanted but DID NOT sign a sales agreement and left it at that for a couple days. Then, when the sales guy emailed me to say they were having trouble locating the car I wanted but had a similar (different color) one coming in that they wanted to know if I'd consider I replied with more than they expected. I said I would look at thew new color when it came in and consider it but that I had also been reviewing the numbers and trying to get my payments where I want them. I told them that I needed a little flexibility on my trade in order to make the deal happen. I again included the NADA data showing roughly $14k for my trade and said that's where I was aiming. In reality I only wanted/needed another $500-$1k on my trade to be happy but you have to shoot for double if you want to land there.

In the end I got $12.5k for my trade which I was happy with because it got my payments where I wanted them, saved me tax money, and I didn't have to go through the pain of working out a private sale. They made out well on the deal as they'll likely make several grand when they sell it and I'm okay with that. It makes no sense for them to be selling cars if they can't make money.

Wow, thanks for this, REALLY informative for me, should be useful when I try to work everything out soon.

Right now my 03 RSX has 67k miles, which is pretty damn good for an almost 10y/o car. It's in pretty excellent condition. Only noticeable things/problems they will see is a bit of peeling on the passenger door window guard, a broken tray tab in the console/cup holder, and the shifter (which was replaced by guy before me) has come loose. Havn't had any accidents, no mechanical work needed and same with dude who owned before me. Would say that's Excellent condition right?

The previous owner also put new wheels/rims on before me, does this affect anything with the value?

And when they make the offer, they factor in everything that I still owe right? Or that's after the offer?

I still want to haggle down a bit if I can tbh since the trade isn't like your 12k one, hopefully the salesman is cool, bringing up that I may be looking into other cars, or like you said, the BRZ may bring him down a bit?

[ssmtsx]

Originally Posted by alluringreality

Truecar lists dealer cost as being below invoice price. The price of the car less dealer cost would be dealer profit.



The Edmunds holdback listing supports this statement. I don't believe they try to track all dealer kickbacks, and the relevant quote from Edmunds is:

"However, the standard dealer holdback is not the only form of financial assistance provided to dealers by manufacturers."

On a quick search I was unable to find the Toyota employee price that someone posted to the forum, but I believe it supports my suggestion that dealer cost is likely below invoice, which would mean dealer profit is more than $1300 for the FR-S sold at MSRP.

Scion's do not have holdback. They're like mini's..invoice is dealer cost.

[Chewie4299]

They'll give you a price for your car without factoring what you owe. But, depending on how your interaction with them has played out, they will likely factor it in when quoting you a monthly payment.

I highly recommend reading some of the articles on Edmunds.com under car buying tips and using their calculators so that you cab walk in with a solid goal in mind and also know where and how to reach for it.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Chewie4299]

Originally Posted by Thanntos

Wow, thanks for this, REALLY informative for me, should be useful when I try to work everything out soon.

Right now my 03 RSX has 67k miles, which is pretty damn good for an almost 10y/o car. It's in pretty excellent condition. Only noticeable things/problems they will see is a bit of peeling on the passenger door window guard, a broken tray tab in the console/cup holder, and the shifter (which was replaced by guy before me) has come loose. Havn't had any accidents, no mechanical work needed and same with dude who owned before me. Would say that's Excellent condition right?

The previous owner also put new wheels/rims on before me, does this affect anything with the value?

And when they make the offer, they factor in everything that I still owe right? Or that's after the offer?

I still want to haggle down a bit if I can tbh since the trade isn't like your 12k one, hopefully the salesman is cool, bringing up that I may be looking into other cars, or like you said, the BRZ may bring him down a bit?

You won't be able to haggle on the FRS price. On top of the fact that Scion has pure price the vehicle is also very hot and they know it. They'd love to sell you the car but they are smart enough to KNOW that they can get MSRP from someone else if you won't pay it.

Focus on your trade. Do everything you can before bringing it to them to maximize its worth. For example I fully detailed my jeep and shampooed the seats and carpets so that it looked like new inside. I even removed some dash trim pieces to get into some crevices.

I also had a cracked front marker light. I bought a new lens online new for $14 and replaced it. I removed my stereo and rewired the stock system back in.

I spent probably a good 12 hours in one day and then a few other bits here and there on the Jeep. I spent money on the marker light and cleaning products. The cleaning products will be useful going forwards so really I put very little into it but I'm confident that this is why I got 12.5k vs 11k.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[alluringreality]

Originally Posted by ssmtsx

Scion's do not have holdback. They're like mini's..invoice is dealer cost.

Truecar agrees with you that invoice for a Mini is dealer cost, but how does that support your claim about Scion? I finally found the link where FR-S employee pricing was posted. Do you seriously think dealerships pay more for Scions than employees?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4614

[fistpoint]

Originally Posted by alluringreality

Truecar agrees with you that invoice for a Mini is dealer cost, but how does that support your claim about Scion? I finally found the link where FR-S employee pricing was posted. Do you seriously think dealerships pay more for Scions than employees?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4614

According to that, there is an additional $242 discount. Which makes $1210 + $242 = $1453(with no holdback). Who knows if that program is constant though? It may be limited time.

[stalon320]

Originally Posted by clevrname

Pure Pricing, like everyone said, is made to make the buying process easier. Whatever the dealer has posted in their showroom and on their website is what they HAVE to sell the vehicle for, according to Scion.

I am a Scion Manager and I know all about how the program works. Do some dealers negotiate? Of course they do, however, I had a finance manager mark down a warranry to make it more fesiable for a Scion customer once, and we were audited by Scion. In return, I lost inventory due to disobeying the Pure Price guidelines.

That being said, when you say "Only 1300 dollars". You have to take into consideration that each vehicle, in most dealerships, have what they call a "pack". My dealership has a $500 pack, meaning no matter what, there is automatically $500 dollars taken our of gross from each vehicle. Therefore, we are now down to 800 dollar profit for the salesperson. If you are truely satisfied with your salesperson, you should not be ridiculous. Salesmen are paid on gross, not units. If I had someone sell 15 FR-S in a month, they would make a whopping $2400 dollars in commissions. 800*15=12,000 in gross, and they make 20% of gross. I don't know about you guys, but for someone working to support a family, $2400 isn't very easy to make ends meet.

If you don't like the price, don't buy the damn car.

/rant

Thats so true! I work for a Toyota/Scion Dealership and people come in alot asking incredibly insane prices for new cars. With the Scion Pure Price, you are really getting VALUE. If you look at similarly equipped vehicles, many if not all will cost more.. even if you "haggle". As to the Salespeople- You must ALWAYS take into account that they earn a living as well. I mean I know you want a great deal.. but asking $4000 below Dealer Invoice is just beyond the pale!! Even before I worked at a Dealership, I've been in Sales all my life.. So I always go in to get a new car and leave about $1000 in it for the Sales person. I mean in my case I know more about the car than they do, So they really aren't Selling me a car as so much filling out paperwork. I figure that $1000 is fair in that regard. Since I've been at a Dealership.. I have heard some crazy offers.. especially on NEW cars.. which don't have much money in them to begin with.. (SUV's not included..lol)
What I am saying is.. especially if you like your salesperson. Make an offer thats reasonable for everyone. You get a good deal, the salesperson makes some money, and everyone's happy. Scion Pure Price does all that for you.. with $800-1000 built into the car and you getting a good value for your money.

[TOYSTRY]

Originally Posted by Thanntos

Could I ask what you mean/how? I am planning on doing a trade in of my 03's RSX (great condition, 67k miles) and I'd REALLY like to know/get some tips on what you meant by this and how? Right now I am looking at a KBB value of 7500-8k on it. I still owe about 4k though.

Check KBB to see what your vehicle is worth as a trade-in to a dealership then "honestly" assess the condition of the vehicle. Let's say it's worth $14,580 in "excellent" condition as a trade-in, go there with a printout of what KBB says based on the options the vehicle has and let them know you won't except any less then the KBB pricing. Be prepared to be told "ya right" and have them low-ball you about $1,000 - $2,500 below what KBB says you should get.

When I traded-in my 2007 Mercedes C230 w/30k in "excellent" condition (I had a professional body shop fix all the scratches and polish the entire car and had the interior detailed "$300 interior detail"). I then called the dealership ahead of time and pre-determined what I'd pay for the 2011 4Runner Limited ($2,000 below sticker) and told them I wouldn't accept any lower then $15,500 for my trade-in). When I got there they honored the pre-arranged price but tried to low-ball me $1,500 on my trade-in. I told them I was walking unless they came back with $15,500 and after about 15 mins of BSing with management I had new keys in hand and was smiling.

Of note, the dealership had it listed for $18,900 the next week so they made a little over $3,000 on it. I could have sold it private-party for $19,000 but Craigslist had over 15 Mercedes that were same year, similar features with more mileage for $2,000-4,000 cheaper then I would have tried to sell it so trading it in was just easier for me.

HTH