[2017 BRZ] Still lost with tires, looking for help

[cytogenesis]

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

Re swapping: that's your call. The way I see it, your wheels can look slightly worse for a couple months and you know you'll never slide your pretty ones into a curb on black ice.

If your primary concern is black ice, grab the michelin XIce3 off tire rack asap, there's a $70 mail in rebate making them around $350+shipping in many sizes which is an insane deal imo!

S-04 has a stiffer sidewall and slightly softer tread, PSS has a more uniform stiffness through the tire. Both will be excellent summer tire choices.

Many Subaru parts departments are really unaware of what they have. Just ask for 2 x 901000394 and corresponding nut. If they say that's 'strictly aftermarket' ask them to search for an M14x60 bolt and corresponding nut, then make them repeat back the part number so you can laugh at them.

You always bring up fair points so now I am starting to tilt to other side. So let me ask this, say I have the crash bolts and I buy that new set of black lug nuts and they get installed. When it comes to swap out for summer tires, is it literally just taking off the winter tires/wheels and putting on the summer tires/wheels? Just a regular swap? Would I need to ask for -2 degrees camber and zero toe every time?

[churchx]

If they are mounted on different wheels, why that would be any different as wheel swap? Just that if one uses tires on wheels for several seasons long without remounting/rebalancing, sometimes disbalance issues may occur. Like some wheel weights falling off, slight tire deformation from storing way or uneven wear and so on. If for long used wheel/tire you feel abnormal noises/vibration, it's worth to rebalance wheel&tire.

Car alignment (bit of camber/toe/caster, with camberbolts, camberplates, LCAs, UCAs, toe arms, eccentric bushings and such parts) doesn't change on wheel swap. And is usually set independently of tire mounts on wheels and often in different shops. It's just spacial orientation/angles you set wheel hubs to, that stays at it, no matter what weels/tires you mount on. One changes alignment in cases if one wishes a bit different handling or if there have been heavy hits to suspension and one suspects (maybe even feels) that alignment got out of whack and needs to be rechecked, not on wheel remounts.

[JazzleSAURUS]

Originally Posted by cytogenesis

You always bring up fair points so now I am starting to tilt to other side. So let me ask this, say I have the crash bolts and I buy that new set of black lug nuts and they get installed. When it comes to swap out for summer tires, is it literally just taking off the winter tires/wheels and putting on the summer tires/wheels? Just a regular swap? Would I need to ask for -2 degrees camber and zero toe every time?

Literally just jack the car up, pop off the lug nuts, swap wheels, lug nuts back on. After the first year of doing this and have dedicated wheels and tires, the $100 you saved puts a nice dent in a harbor freight jack and a pair of stands to do it yourself.

[cytogenesis]

Originally Posted by churchx

If they are mounted on different wheels, why that would be any different as wheel swap? Just that if one uses tires on wheels for several seasons long without remounting/rebalancing, sometimes disbalance issues may occur. Like some wheel weights falling off, slight tire deformation from storing way or uneven wear and so on. If for long used wheel/tire you feel abnormal noises/vibration, it's worth to rebalance wheel&tire.

Car alignment (bit of camber/toe/caster, with camberbolts, camberplates, LCAs, UCAs, toe arms, eccentric bushings and such parts) doesn't change on wheel swap. And is usually set independently of tire mounts on wheels and often in different shops. It's just spacial orientation/angles you set wheel hubs to, that stays at it, no matter what weels/tires you mount on. One changes alignment in cases if one wishes a bit different handling or if there have been heavy hits to suspension and one suspects (maybe even feels) that alignment got out of whack and needs to be rechecked, not on wheel remounts.

I'm having trouble understanding your first paragraph. Are you speaking against only tire swapping or vise versa? Sorry for my confusion.

[churchx]

Originally Posted by cytogenesis

I'm having trouble understanding your first paragraph. Are you speaking against only tire swapping or vise versa? Sorry for my confusion.

Both have pros & cons. Having another set of wheels with other season tires may let save some money on not remounting tires on wheels & balancing them each year twice at tire shops, especially if you change wheels yourself (i suggest getting better then stock jack and easier to use wrench though instead of those stock in boot, for easier/quicker DIY wheel swap). Also permits usage of different sized wheels in winter (eg. smaller ones, for more comfortable ride on bad roads in winter, cheaper tires (for me same brand/model of tires of R16 tires was 150eur less then R17)). And if you have expensive aftermarket wheels, lets save them against damages during worse weather/roads season. From cons: you need to have another set of wheels (if you bought aftermarket wheels, you still have your stock wheels set though. And if you have nice stock alloys, you can get for cheap used another alloy set or new cheap steelies set for winter), and as i noted in quoted post, for several years/seasons in a row used/stored tire-wheel combo may get disbalanced for few reasons, thus wobble when driving, so sometimes separate remount/rebalance might be needed.

Reusing same set of wheels, just remounting winter or summer tires on them by season, on the other hand can let save some money on not getting 2nd set of wheels, lets have nice looking and possibly lighter wheels all year round, enables usage of some storage services for storing other season tires when unused if available in neighbourhood, not in your flat/house and you get tires rebalanced on each mount. But among cons: paying twice a year for remounting services, lower comfort & higher possibility to damage wheels in some winter road holes due lower sidewall profile with less flex/dampening, possibly need to get too wide winter tires to fit wider wheel width and also maybe pay more for tires.

I'm not advocating 100% pro or contra one or another. Everybody may have his own preferences/priorities.

In addition to post of JazzleSAURUS, if you DIY, remember: 1) tighten lugnuts in cross order (1-4-2-5-3), 2) after driving 100-200 miles check/tighten nuts again if needed, 3) tires are worth to store in place not subjected to direct sunlight/rain/snow, 4) imho better store on side, not vertically.

[cytogenesis]

Originally Posted by churchx

Both have pros & cons. Having another set of wheels with other season tires may let save some money on not remounting tires on wheels & balancing them each year twice at tire shops, especially if you change wheels yourself (i suggest getting better then stock jack and easier to use wrench though instead of those stock in boot, for easier/quicker DIY wheel swap). Also permits usage of different sized wheels in winter (eg. smaller ones, for more comfortable ride on bad roads in winter, cheaper tires (for me same brand/model of tires of R16 tires was 150eur less then R17)). And if you have expensive aftermarket wheels, lets save them against damages during worse weather/roads season. From cons: you need to have another set of wheels (if you bought aftermarket wheels, you still have your stock wheels set though. And if you have nice stock alloys, you can get for cheap used another alloy set or new cheap steelies set for winter), and as i noted in quoted post, for several years/seasons in a row used/stored tire-wheel combo may get disbalanced for few reasons, thus wobble when driving, so sometimes separate remount/rebalance might be needed.

Reusing same set of wheels, just remounting winter or summer tires on them by season, on the other hand can let save some money on not getting 2nd set of wheels, lets have nice looking and possibly lighter wheels all year round, enables usage of some storage services for storing other season tires when unused if available in neighbourhood, not in your flat/house and you get tires rebalanced on each mount. But among cons: paying twice a year for remounting services, lower comfort & higher possibility to damage wheels in some winter road holes due lower sidewall profile with less flex/dampening, possibly need to get too wide winter tires to fit wider wheel width and also maybe pay more for tires.

I'm not advocating 100% pro or contra one or another. Everybody may have his own preferences/priorities.

In addition to post of JazzleSAURUS, if you DIY, remember: 1) tighten lugnuts in cross order (1-4-2-5-3), 2) after driving 100-200 miles check/tighten nuts again if needed, 3) tires are worth to store in place not subjected to direct sunlight/rain/snow, 4) imho better store on side, not vertically.

Ah ok, thanks for clarifying! I'm going to respond to JazzleSAURUS's with my gameplan based on the feedback I've gotten. Feel free to provide feedback on it as I will probably still need some answers within it.

[cytogenesis]

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

Literally just jack the car up, pop off the lug nuts, swap wheels, lug nuts back on. After the first year of doing this and have dedicated wheels and tires, the $100 you saved puts a nice dent in a harbor freight jack and a pair of stands to do it yourself.

Ok so, I think I'm going to go oseparate wheels and tires based on season based on the feedback I'm getting. I would like to use stock wheels for winter and still the 17x8 oversteers for summer. This is my gameplan, I'll lace some questions in there along the way. Any feedback/suggestions are welcome. @churchx also

1) Get winter tires (or all seasons?) (still not sure which is better for my weather/gameplan)
- what size do i need to get for stock wheels?
- depending on which you think is better for this season, what model?
2) install winter tires on stock wheels with previously mentioned Muteki lug nut set, 14mm OEM crash bolts (up to -2 deg camber and zero toe)
- I'm assuming it won't be appropriate here to assess if I want spacers unless the new tires I get are the same size
- Ideally I could find a setup that would make it to where it looks good with both if I decide to add spacers, if that makes sense...
3) Come the new season, get summer tires (225/45/R17) either Bridgestone S-04's or Michelin Pilot Super Sports and 17x8 +35 Oversteers
- How do you tell when it's time to swap to summers? is it 45F and above?
- I also will need to figure out how to properly store tires and wheels come time for the summer swap

I know a good bit of this is repeat so sorry in advance for that, I'm just getting lost between these all seasons and winters. Also, I like the security in knowing I'm making the right purchase .

[churchx]

1) both me and JazzleSAURUS already had suggested on previous page for your weather all-seasons . Due living in place that is colder on average and often snow/ice at least half of winter i never drove with ones myself using only real winter tires (currently even studded ones), but most often in this forum from all-seasons i saw mentioned michelin pilot A/S 3. Supposedly grip very well, about only drawback, due softer rubber sidewalls more mushy feeling/less sharp steering. For stock wheels of x7" width min 195, ideal 205-215, max 225. I'd go with stock size, which as you know it, 215/45/R17.
2) if in future you want to use spacers (and thus possibly extended studs if with thicker slipon spacers), i guess worth getting open ended lugnuts.
Not sure on oem crash bolt use. OEM crash bolts are same 14mm bolts that are in lower holes (stock upper bolt - 16mm). Most often they are reused together with normal camber bolt with lope in lower hole, relocating originals to upper. But if you want to use just OE crashbolts, you'll need to order another pair for upper hole .. and by then why not normal camberbolts (which for reference are SPC 81305 for lower hole, Whiteline KCA416 for upper)? They are not expensive.
Regarding flushness, i don't care at all about it, and not too fond of spacers, but from what i know, if properly used/installed they are safe enough. Needed spacer thickness you can get from wheel offset and suggested offset from sticky wheel directory thread's first pot wheel flushness chart. If due spacer usage you'll get extended studs, check of their (or lugnuts' which you stated planning to get too) thread to match. Stock studs (and lugnuts) are M12x1.25 threaded, but often 12x1.5 are chosen as harder to strip.
3) from googled up 45F is 7C? Sounds about right. I wouldn't think/wait that precise though . At nights it's usually cooler, and if one has to drive early in the mornings .. when day temp in autumn starts drop around/below those 45F i start to think when it's less hassle to do switch, eg. in weekend. Though some sudden first snow even if thawn off right away, or temps below 0C(32F) in night may convince me to change right away, even if day temps are warm. One may also look at weather forecast.
For storage i myself bought tire totes for simpler carrying around to-from car, and special tire storage cover/tire storage bag for all four tires/wheels stacked (i have small flat, so have to store them outside on balcony, to save space. So that cover is for protection from sunlight/rain/snow).

[JSube]

Originally Posted by cytogenesis

Ok so, I think I'm going to go oseparate wheels and tires based on season based on the feedback I'm getting. I would like to use stock wheels for winter and still the 17x8 oversteers for summer. This is my gameplan, I'll lace some questions in there along the way. Any feedback/suggestions are welcome. @churchx also

1) Get winter tires (or all seasons?) (still not sure which is better for my weather/gameplan)
- what size do i need to get for stock wheels?
- depending on which you think is better for this season, what model?
2) install winter tires on stock wheels with previously mentioned Muteki lug nut set, 14mm OEM crash bolts (up to -2 deg camber and zero toe)
- I'm assuming it won't be appropriate here to assess if I want spacers unless the new tires I get are the same size
- Ideally I could find a setup that would make it to where it looks good with both if I decide to add spacers, if that makes sense...
3) Come the new season, get summer tires (225/45/R17) either Bridgestone S-04's or Michelin Pilot Super Sports and 17x8 +35 Oversteers
- How do you tell when it's time to swap to summers? is it 45F and above?
- I also will need to figure out how to properly store tires and wheels come time for the summer swap

I know a good bit of this is repeat so sorry in advance for that, I'm just getting lost between these all seasons and winters. Also, I like the security in knowing I'm making the right purchase .

Didn't notice anyone mentioning this, forgive me if it was covered, but one thing our cars are sensitive to is adding or reducing weight, particularly unsprung weight like wheels and tires. The wheels you mentioned are good looking wheels (Raijin, etc) and they're about the same weight as stock wheels. But RPF1s are approx. a whopping 5-6 lbs per wheel less than stock wheels. And collectively, a 20-24 lb unsprung weight loss you can feel in a really good way performance-wise. IMO that makes them a great choice for summer wheels when the roads are in good shape. Also keep in mind the cars in those links you included were all lowered. Flush is good, but it's not the whole package of what you've been drooling over!

Also, it looks like you live in Tennessee, which certainly gets snow on the Appalachian side but if that's not where you live you'll likely be happy with "performance" all seasons, which you can find reviewed and compared on Tire Rack. I have Pirelli All Season Plus and they're a great choice in Louisville KY.

Finally, spending big money on ultra grippy summer tires and not increasing you car's performance will result in a disappointing reduction of nimble handling and joy during moments of hoonigan behavior in our cars. That is not a universally agreed-with position on our forum, but the fact is SubaYota engineers designed the chassis specifically with the Primacys attached because in Europe they're cheap and their behavior on the car suited and complimented the chassis/engine package. It's possible to numb-down our cars and it's a drag to spend money to do so.

[churchx]

JSube: Primacies are more expensive then average in EU too. I can get MPSS for way less then them.

[JSube]

Originally Posted by churchx

JSube: Primacies are more expensive then average in EU too. I can get MPSS for way less then them.

That's crazy that MPSS are less than PHPs, churchx. Here they're basically the same price. I'll admit I wouldn't pay full price for them, but I'd still rather have the PHPs for the street. Not because MPSS aren't great tires but I have what I feel is a better tire choice than them for the track on another set of wheels and I bought a new set of take-off PHPs for $400 from a forum member as my back-up street set.

[cytogenesis]

Originally Posted by JSube

Didn't notice anyone mentioning this, forgive me if it was covered, but one thing our cars are sensitive to is adding or reducing weight, particularly unsprung weight like wheels and tires. The wheels you mentioned are good looking wheels (Raijin, etc) and they're about the same weight as stock wheels. But RPF1s are approx. a whopping 5-6 lbs per wheel less than stock wheels. And collectively, a 20-24 lb unsprung weight loss you can feel in a really good way performance-wise. IMO that makes them a great choice for summer wheels when the roads are in good shape. Also keep in mind the cars in those links you included were all lowered. Flush is good, but it's not the whole package of what you've been drooling over!

Also, it looks like you live in Tennessee, which certainly gets snow on the Appalachian side but if that's not where you live you'll likely be happy with "performance" all seasons, which you can find reviewed and compared on Tire Rack. I have Pirelli All Season Plus and they're a great choice in Louisville KY.

Finally, spending big money on ultra grippy summer tires and not increasing you car's performance will result in a disappointing reduction of nimble handling and joy during moments of hoonigan behavior in our cars. That is not a universally agreed-with position on our forum, but the fact is SubaYota engineers designed the chassis specifically with the Primacys attached because in Europe they're cheap and their behavior on the car suited and complimented the chassis/engine package. It's possible to numb-down our cars and it's a drag to spend money to do so.

So you're saying making these changes without altering the performance will make my car worse?

[jvincent]

Originally Posted by cytogenesis

So you're saying making these changes without altering the performance will make my car worse?

Depends on your definition of worse and what you want out of the car.

Moving to wider, stickier tires will mean you lose the ability to get the car sliding as easily as it does out of the box. If you don't want that, then you have arguably made the car "better".

If you plan on tracking the car at all, then stickier is probably better.

[churchx]

jvincent: for results & speed, yes. For just first experience / learning, imho opposite.