FA20 Engine Expert Needed in Central NJ - Payment for Your Expertise

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by gtengr

Does the dealership know you towed it from a road course?

They do by now.
In fact at this point they know every single aspect of his case and can be prepared to counter it.
Hooray internet!

[JazzleSAURUS]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Element Tuning is likely your best bet as being the closest well known 86 builder on the East coast. There is also Moto-East in Pennsylvania, but they will both likely charge for their services and eat into any reward you get by a significant amount, if they feel they are even able to perform the duties you request.

In for suggestions on oil better than Mobil 1 that doesn't break the bank for casual track/autox use, tired of paying ~$50 for an oil change on Eneos.
Edit: but I'm willing to keep paying the 'big bucks' to keep my engine healthy for a long time.

What oil weight are you looking for?

In EJ land a lot of people use a 5-40, either T6, Motul, or Amsoil, but I know with the FA20's most people run somewhere between 0-20 and 5-30. Motul, Amsoil, Eneos, Liquimoly are awesome products.

a 0-30 or 5-30 would be my choice for track. My pressures are fine on street with Eneos 0-20, but I do plan to add an FXT oil cooler to help keep them consistent.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jamison884

For clarification purposes, this engine is stock and had six oil changes over the course of 26,000 miles and four years of second car usage.

The engine failed THREE laps in on a 1.2 mile road course (1.2 is off memory, but it's short). RPMs were not sustained above 4,000 RPM during this time, as it was my first track time using a manual of any kind, so they were essentially practice laps learning the gear changes required for each turn.

The check engine light never came on during or after and the coolant temperate was precisely in the middle. There was no coolant steam. It's my understanding both coolant and the properties of the engine oil work to cool any engine. If the coolant wasn't even elevated, how could the fresh oil exceed max temps and cause a failure within three total laps, which includes the slow-in half lap to the pits? I'm no expert, but this failure isn't passing the BS test for me.

Finally, no one at Toyota corporate or the dealership said anything derogatory concerning the Mobil1 oil quality. Also, it was a cool day in early March if that helps any.

Thanks for the replies so far, but I'm still looking for an expert to testify in what would likely be small claims court simply to limit my expenses exposure and recover partial value of the $5,300 quote for a replacement.

I am that someone, who would qualify as the expert witness that you're looking for. I'm also telling you that you have a big uphill battle to fight.

You have evidence of loss of lubrication, and by your own words, the engine oil level was perfectly fine. Was the oil that was drained from the engine sent off for analysis?

Take any FRS/BRZ/86, go on the highway, and sit in 3rd gear, for sustained high RPMs. Your coolant will sit at 188F-195F, but your oil temperature will skyrocket and hit 260F in under a minute. Coolant and oil temperatures have minimal correlation unless you've tied the systems together with an oil/coolant heat exchanger (e.g. Jackson Racing dual radiator/oil cooler, Cusco oil cooler, or OEM DIT oil cooler).

Coolant directly cools the engine via conduction; oil lubricates moving parts, and minimally contributes to cooling.

Are you being represented by council or pro se?

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Azzudien

Aggressive driving to me is never letting the car dip below 4000rpm to keep it out of the power dip, and that is for 20-25 minute track sessions. Something you would never be able to do on the street.

I doubt 3 laps equates to 20 minutes of track time, unless you are on a relatively high speed track. I was taking that into account when I'm giving my example having read the OPs other post.

Anyway, I was only commenting on the blanket statement of 'Mobil 1 is not a quality oil' as an absurd statement, particularly regarding why the OPs engine failed, without proper context or evidence. Only thing I can find is that folks see higher than expected levels of copper in turbo WRX applications when using some weights, and sometimes turbos start leaking. I don't have the time, or care enough, to do my own comprehensive statistical analysis of Mobil 1 in Subaru engines and failure rate so folks can believe what they want.

Is 0w20 a bit thin to be running on track for extended periods? Maybe. Is an oil cooler a good idea for extended track sessions? Maybe. Perhaps there is an oil that handles high temperatures better and decreases wear on copper components in particular.

[jamison884]

Originally Posted by gtengr

Does the dealership know you towed it from a road course?

I didn't disclose this initially as I didn't want them to deny a warranty claim ouright without actually investigating the issue.

I was fully aware a forum post is public domain and the facts always come out if it were to go to any court.

However, Toyota denied the warranty claim prior to my post or any mention of the road course. They essentially accused me of having an oil leak, the engine failing, and then filling the engine with brand new oil before dropping it off at the dealership. All you guys can do is take my word that I didn't add any oil or tamper with anything post-failure.

Others at the road course who assisted me and the tow truck driver could ultimately verify the timeline of events to prove I didn't tamper.

[jasonojordan]

Sounds like you would be better off at this point going that route and getting sworn testimony from them that there was the right amount of oil the engine then trying to find a engine expert to discount what the dealer said is false and you can track the car fine on a 0-20 oil such as mobile 1.

Situations like this suck especially when you feel like you did nothing wrong and there is nothing else you could of done differently to change the scenario.

Originally Posted by jamison884

I didn't disclose this initially as I didn't want them to deny a warranty claim ouright without actually investigating the issue.

I was fully aware a forum post is public domain and the facts always come out if it were to go to any court.

However, Toyota denied the warranty claim prior to my post or any mention of the road course. They essentially accused me of having an oil leak, the engine failing, and then filling the engine with brand new oil before dropping it off at the dealership. All you guys can do is take my word that I didn't add any oil or tamper with anything post-failure.

Others at the road course who assisted me and the tow truck driver could ultimately verify the timeline of events to prove I didn't tamper.

[jamison884]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I am that someone, who would qualify as the expert witness that you're looking for. I'm also telling you that you have a big uphill battle to fight.

You have evidence of loss of lubrication, and by your own words, the engine oil level was perfectly fine. Was the oil that was drained from the engine sent off for analysis?

Take any FRS/BRZ/86, go on the highway, and sit in 3rd gear, for sustained high RPMs. Your coolant will sit at 188F-195F, but your oil temperature will skyrocket and hit 260F in under a minute. Coolant and oil temperatures have minimal correlation unless you've tied the systems together with an oil/coolant heat exchanger (e.g. Jackson Racing dual radiator/oil cooler, Cusco oil cooler, or OEM DIT oil cooler).

Coolant directly cools the engine via conduction; oil lubricates moving parts, and minimally contributes to cooling.

Are you being represented by council or pro se?

I've consulted with an attorney but she doesn't have any knowledge of cars/engines which complicates things. She did say it would require extensive investment to try the lawsuit for full damages of approximately $15k, which is why the quicker and less expensive small claims court option was discussed. If I were to lose in small claims, even with expert testimony, I'm only out less than $1k versus the potential loss of $25k plus in trial court with multiple witnesses and a lengthy discovery process.

They did not save the oil and I don't know if they took pictures or documented the disassembly. The dealership tech said there was adequate oil in the engine and actively encouraged me to fight Toyota corporate, but it wasn't the dealerships decision to ultimately approve the claim. I still have the entirety of the dead engine in disassembled form for analysis.

I guess my point in trying to involve an expert is to testify on the two plus issues which I've heard cause failures in 2013 engines due to oil/injector seal/excess gasket sealant failures.

[Azzudien]

You have a HUGE variable to over come considering you bought this car with 26,000 miles already on the car. You could have done absolutely nothing wrong post purchase including the time spent on track, but what you don't know is what kind of condition the car was in prior to purchase.
All of that damage could have been previous owner and the moment you started pushing it hard it finally gave out.

I really hope you win the case, I hope you find a expert to back you up, but bottom line you cannot walk into any mediation or court and base you entire case on the miles you drove the car with no history how hard the previous owner drove the car.

The engineer is looking at the physical evidence in front of him making the determination oil starvation. It is entirely possible the first owner did no maintenance at all and once they traded it in, the dealership did their 200 point check and replaced the old crude oil with new. I don't know of any used car dealer that does the so called check that removes the heads or oil pan to check for damage.

[jamison884]

I appreciate all of your time everyone. This information will definitely help me decide how to proceed from here. I hope I'm not coming off as too ignorant or optimistic, as I know there's an awful lot of variables here with a low overall dollar value.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jamison884

I've consulted with an attorney but she doesn't have any knowledge of cars/engines which complicates things. She did say it would require extensive investment to try the lawsuit for full damages of approximately $15k, which is why the quicker and less expensive small claims court option was discussed. If I were to lose in small claims, even with expert testimony, I'm only out less than $1k versus the potential loss of $25k plus in trial court with multiple witnesses and a lengthy discovery process.

They did not save the oil and I don't know if they took pictures or documented the disassembly. The dealership tech said there was adequate oil in the engine and actively encouraged me to fight Toyota corporate, but it wasn't the dealerships decision to ultimately approve the claim. I still have the entirety of the dead engine in disassembled form for analysis.

I guess my point in trying to involve an expert is to testify on the two plus issues which I've heard cause failures in 2013 engines due to oil/injector seal/excess gasket sealant failures.

I highly recommend you consult with attorneys who specialize in automotive cases.

The easiest way to see if you have a case, is to see if any attorney will take your case on contingency. You pay nothing up front, and they take an agreed upon percentage if you win. In other words, the attorney will take the case on contingency if they believe 1. it is worth their time in terms of payout and 2. they are confident they can win.

If you can only find attorneys that will work on an hourly basis, that's a bad sign.



Right now, all we know is:

- You bought a used car
- You tracked the car
- The engine spun a bearing as a result of lack of lubrication, but the engine oil level was fine.


Check out:

https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/docu...MMS-13FR-S.pdf

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Right now, all we know is:

- You bought a used car
- You tracked the car
- The engine spun a bearing as a result of lack of lubrication, but the engine oil level was fine.


Check out:

https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/docu...MMS-13FR-S.pdf

Judge - "What caused this lack of lubrication issue?"
Expert - "Well there are a few recorded cases of this happening in other cars. In most cases the root cause was not determined but a couple had silicone blocking the channels"
Judge - "Can you show this was the case with this engine?"
Expert - "No the oil had been drained and the engine disassembled before I ever saw it".
Judge - "Case found in favour of the defendant"

[CSG Mike]

Cross:

- "can doing 3 laps on a race track cause this lack of lubrication issue"
- Yes
- "Did this car have oil cooling"
- No
- "Is it reasonable to expect oil temps to get dangerously high in 3 laps?"
- Yes
- "Is it reasonable for bearing damage to occur as a result of these elevated oil temps from racing the engine on a race track?"
- Yes

Can't forget that Toyota will also have the opportunity to defend.

Not my image, but you get the idea.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

What oil weight are you looking for?

In EJ land a lot of people use a 5-40, either T6, Motul, or Amsoil, but I know with the FA20's most people run somewhere between 0-20 and 5-30. Motul, Amsoil, Eneos, Liquimoly are awesome products.

a 0-30 or 5-30 would be my choice for track. My pressures are fine on street with Eneos 0-20, but I do plan to add an FXT oil cooler to help keep them consistent.

I should start another thread and not derail this one further but whatever, no catch all thread exists, lets keep the info scattered


I think I fall into the category of most enthusiasts who beat up on their DD, a few track days per year and/or consistent autox use or quicker than average backroads cruising. Like the OP ~230 F oil temperature will be a semi-regular occurrence (I can hit that on a ~60s autox run in the summer) but >250 is likely a rarity, oil cooler is likely not on the table due to rulesets, costs, or beliefs that modern quality oil will survive <300F peak temperatures. 0W-20 is desired as in all reality the car is DD 90-95% of it's life.

The thought process was that my usage is probably well within what a reasonably reputable oil can handle, Mobil 1, Castrol, Pennzoil, Idemitsu, and I could save a few bucks off of buying the more niche and boutique brands such as Motul, Eneos, Amsoil, RL, Liquimoly, etc. (added bonus it makes grabbing that emergency extra quart for a top off less stressful)

Was thinking Mobil 1 but Amazon doesn't offer the long-life version at a reasonable price anymore, only the 'eco' version which I'm assuming isn't best for my use case. Would have to rely on walking into O'Reilly and ordering or hoping they have EP, Super Synthetic, or their 'regular' 'annual service' oil on the shelf.

But apparently an old buddy's shop is a Motul dealer so maybe I'll go through him for 8100 or 300V 0W-20 even if it's no cheaper than the $50+ on Eneos I was spending.

[Capt Spaulding]

Mike,

Something about the image/graph doesn't seem right. Are the "pan" temps in F or C? I've never seen oil operating temp at idle at 135F.