Um guys? Scion's Own FT86 Coming to New York Show Next month?

[NESW20]

Originally Posted by Toyota4Life

The Exige has the 2GR-FE, though modified by Lotus for their specs.

The Elise had the 2ZZ-GE, which is from the Celica GT-S, and modified for Lotus as well.

Toyota and Lotus have had a decades long relationship, so that's why Lotus uses Toyota engines (and also because they're good :happy0180

you mean the Evora. the Exige has the same engine as the Elise.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I think what he was getting at, and what Dragon isn't fully understanding, is that if they had built a 2AZGE, or some dedicated 'G' 2.4L it would be more than just the valve angle. Imagine a Toyota dedicated-performance 2.4L L4. It would massacre the 2AZFE in all circumstances, stock, boosted, whatever. Plus likely be capable of way more before any internal mods would need to be invested in, or need as much boost, or money to make whatever power level the chassis could handle, as well as likely be more driveable as well.

Now if they had built a suitable chassis (FWD, AWD, RWD, doesn't matter, just a well put-together chassis) to wield this new fantasy motor, Scion/Toyota wouldn't be paying teams to use their product. Everyone would be buying them because they were the best and if you didn't have one, you wouldn't be competitive.

Instead they gave cars to the best teams, with access to factory support (which is more than just money, BTW Dragon) to make some exceptional racing cars, that inspire a few people to try to emulate that. That's marketing. That is the only reason people bothered to turbo a Camry motor. (The fact that it performs well under boost isn't amazing news. But there is no recent Toyota 'G'/Performance motor to compare against.)

Originally Posted by Exage

This is what I mean without any of my technical mumbo-jumbo. Toyota could have created in essence what Honda has now with its (~200hp) K24 5 years ago, sans the casted on exhaust manifold...

It could have been enough that peoples perception of Scion would have been slightly different then that of today. Particularly if the "theoretical" stock tC was able to stand its ground or beat the Civic Si, GTI, Sentra SE-R...

Regardless which brand sells the FT86 platform, I can only see this as a plus that Toyota (of all the manufactures) and Subaru are willing to design a fun, good looking (,somewhat less expensive) rwd car in a time of environmental concern and market recession.

My contention is that the actual design of a "G" headed motor wouldn't be much different than what's there, but I do agree that the 2AZ-FE could be far better than it's actual state of tune if Toyota chose for it to be a dedicated performance motor.


IIRC they use an AZ motor in one of the lower Japanese open wheel racing series. Akin to Formula Atlantic 4As I assume. Don't really have much info on it's spec though.

[Archer256]

So i might be derailing here but, after some thought...who cares if it's badged a Scion in the U.S? I mean i would like Toyota badge on this yes, BUT if they bring a high quality interior no matter what the badge then i have no complaints. People wont notice the Scion badge until after they drool, jizz. in. their pants. and try to figure out which dealer they should go to for this sexy car.

Toyota's flagship car is the LFA guys lol. It's not overpriced they make no profit, they LOSE money, off of each one they sold. Why? R&D mostly and carbon fiber chassis and other parts arent cheap (although all the R&D into them surely drove down the cost for Toyota - plan is more CF in lexus/toyota eventually). There's also the IS-F and other F marques coming. For all we know the new IS could be based on the FT-86 and we'll end up seeing a supreme performance luxury monster spawning.

This car is already serving one of its main purposes - HOLY CRAP THAT'S A TOYOTA??!?!?!?!?! sweet, hot damn.
The 2011 IS-F already did that though, poor thing gets looked over.

[aliphian]

Originally Posted by Archer256

So i might be derailing here but, after some thought...who cares if it's badged a Scion in the U.S?

I agree. I would drive this thing even if it were badged a Daewoo.

[blur]

Umm dragonitti, I have a few questions. There are a number of scions in FD. Now, lets compare it to grassroots drifting for a second. How much money would it cost me to convert a scion to rwd so I can drift it? What's the advantage above, say, a genesis 2.0t, in terms of converting a car's drivetrain to drift instead of just buying a rwd car? How come scion is just about the only FWD -> RWD converted car in FD? Is it because after you dumped thousands upon thousands of dollars into it, it can keep up with the competition? But then why buy it to drift it in the first place? Why doesnt Fredric Aasbo keep the Supra he drove over the new tube chassis scion he's getting built? After all, wouldnt that be cheaper and easier to maintain during the season? Are you honestly going to quote me and tell me that converting a drivetrain and dumping tons of cash into a FWD car designed for cool kids is better than a tried and proven platform?

(btw, I may come off aggressive, but don't take it the wrong way; I find you one of the more respectable members of this site, battling people like me on a daily basis lol)

The new FD rules need to be stricter. No drivetrain conversions, PERIOD. Keep it simple. Maybe then scion will introduce a car you can actually drift, like they do on TV =) That and the Minami course of Ebisu should be featured.

Originally Posted by aliphian

I agree. I would drive this thing even if it were badged a Daewoo.

Put it this way, a scion badge equates to a new scion version of the concept, which equates to everything scion currently is putting in their lineup, in our precious FT86. AKA Fuel economy over performance, boxy design cues, and sporty over sport. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Just to show you what kind of crowd buy scions, check out their forums. There one thread, with almost 1 page, about the FT86 II. That's it. They're really excited about this car -_- I read a post from someone who says that he doesnt like the idea of a RWD, his girlfriend drives his car in the winter . . . *facepalm*

[aliphian]

Originally Posted by blur

Just to show you what kind of crowd buy scions, check out their forums. There one thread, with almost 1 page, about the FT86 II. That's it. They're really excited about this car -_- I read a post from someone who says that he doesnt like the idea of a RWD, his girlfriend drives his car in the winter . . . *facepalm*

I'm with you, I am REALLY hoping for a Toyota badge but the car will be mine regardless.

[Aki]

Originally Posted by blur

Just to show you what kind of crowd buy scions, check out their forums. There one thread, with almost 1 page, about the FT86 II. That's it. They're really excited about this car -_- I read a post from someone who says that he doesnt like the idea of a RWD, his girlfriend drives his car in the winter . . . *facepalm*

Forums are a small subset of the buying populace though. You see a lot of 50-year olds driving Scion TCs, who would never be on Sciolife or whatever forums they frequent.

So i might be derailing here but, after some thought...who cares if it's badged a Scion in the U.S? I mean i would like Toyota badge on this yes, BUT if they bring a high quality interior no matter what the badge then i have no complaints. People wont notice the Scion badge until after they drool, jizz. in. their pants. and try to figure out which dealer they should go to for this sexy car.

This. Plus, the negative stigma of the Scion badge stems from its lineup and the type of people that lineup appeals to. This would expand the appeal of the brand. Worse comes to worse, you just spend a couple bucks swapping badges.

[aliphian]

Originally Posted by Aki

Worse comes to worse, you just spend a couple bucks swapping badges.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

My contention is that the actual design of a "G" headed motor wouldn't be much different than what's there, but I do agree that the 2AZ-FE could be far better than it's actual state of tune if Toyota chose for it to be a dedicated performance motor.

I have to admit, that anytime I see "F" in the head designation, it always brings up the slave-cam design in my head. Its really the main reason I just shrug at 'em.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by xantonin

What's the point in 1400 WHP if you can't keep the wheels on the ground? Also, seems to me that is a little high of a number to be asking from a 1.8 litre, regardless of G or F (but I could be wrong).

Put it to the ground? It's AWD buddy.

Originally Posted by xantonin

Still, if you ask me I'd sayf 750 WHP is good enough to ask for out of the 2ZZ-GE!!

Already seen that dyno. I'm on 9thgenCorolla.

Originally Posted by Dimman

I think what he was getting at, and what Dragon isn't fully understanding, is that if they had built a 2AZGE, or some dedicated 'G' 2.4L it would be more than just the valve angle. Imagine a Toyota dedicated-performance 2.4L L4. It would massacre the 2AZFE in all circumstances, stock, boosted, whatever. Plus likely be capable of way more before any internal mods would need to be invested in, or need as much boost, or money to make whatever power level the chassis could handle, as well as likely be more driveable as well.

There is a difference between not understanding, and not carrying. Pretty sure I made it clear that I didn't really care it doesn't have a GE head.

Originally Posted by xantonin

Instead they gave cars to the best teams, with access to factory support (which is more than just money, BTW Dragon)

Do tell what that is? It ain't advice and technology cause this isn't their first BBQ on building bad ass machines.

Originally Posted by xantonin

to make some exceptional racing cars, that inspire a few people to try to emulate that. That's marketing. That is the only reason people bothered to turbo a Camry motor. (The fact that it performs well under boost isn't amazing news. But there is no recent Toyota 'G'/Performance motor to compare against.)

FYI....people were boosted before Rado came along and destroyed records with it. I was one of those people.

Originally Posted by Exage

It could have been enough that peoples perception of Scion would have been slightly different then that of today. Particularly if the "theoretical" stock tC was able to stand its ground or beat the Civic Si, GTI, Sentra SE-R...

It does hold it's ground. The SI for example, won't pass a tC until after the 1/8th mile. No comparison on road courses that I'm aware of.

Doubt though the engine would have made that much of a difference as most hate the marketing strategy of Scion more than the cars themselves, as most aren't even aware of how it performs.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Archer256

So i might be derailing here but, after some thought...who cares if it's badged a Scion in the U.S? over.

On that note also, I find it interesting all the people who don't want it as a Scion go as far as having this impression that the build quality will depreciate. How is the build quality going to be different from the rest of the world if all there is, is a badge change?

Change the badge, no one cares. It's going to be the same damn car people. There for sure is a possibility of variance in a JDM version and a USDM version, but it's the same car.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

My contention is that the actual design of a "G" headed motor wouldn't be much different than what's there, but I do agree that the 2AZ-FE could be far better than it's actual state of tune if Toyota chose for it to be a dedicated performance motor.

I think I see where you're coming from. And I can kind of agree with your statement of the 2AZ engine would not be that different with a GE head, so I'll do put what I'm thinking a different way. This is going to be similar in comparison to the late ZZ series simply because it's the easiest way for me to explain.

Lets say hypothetically Toyota designed an engine called the XAZ-GE:

4 cylinder, 90.5mm bore, 92mm stroke = 2367cc or 2.4L slightly under-square.

I worked with some calculations and simply put; this engine hypothetically is capable of more than 200bhp @7000rpm naturally aspirated.

This is the type of engine that the G head was designed to be put on. But another bit I must add is that while the G "indicates" a wide angle valve head there is much more to the engine than the little letter indicates...

Please have a look at the following technical PDF on the 2ZZ-GE to see what I'm trying to explain. There are similarities to the 1ZZ-FE and 1ZZ-FED, but there are also many differences in components and materials for the pursuit of reliable performance, hence why it was expensive to manufacture.

http://www.mr2.com/files/mr2/techinf...Data/2zzfe.pdf

Hope this clears some misinterpretation.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by blur

Umm dragonitti, I have a few questions. There are a number of scions in FD. Now, lets compare it to grassroots drifting for a second. How much money would it cost me to convert a scion to rwd so I can drift it?

If you were going down that road, I would imagine you wouldn't be doing amateur grass roots drifting at that point. No Scion enthusiast I know, appreciate the Drift cars because they are RWD's, but because they use the same powerplant that comes from the factory (at least they do now after trying "better" motors first). FD rules changed so now Tanner can't use the V8 like a lot of other guys in FD now. Therefore, his 2011 tC will have the tC motor (2ar).

Originally Posted by blur

What's the advantage above, say, a genesis 2.0t, in terms of converting a car's drivetrain to drift instead of just buying a rwd car?

There is none other than preference. Building something vs Buying something.

Originally Posted by blur

How come scion is just about the only FWD -> RWD converted car in FD? Is it because after you dumped thousands upon thousands of dollars into it, it can keep up with the competition?

FD Rules: No FWD cars may be converted to RWD to compete. Only AWD chassis or RWD chassis cars may compete in FD. The Scion tC is an AWD Chassis. It gets it's chassis from it's European cousin the Toyota Avensis which comes in AWD variant. In the US, the tC has the rear components removed and thus is FWD here.

All the cars in FD are beyond an average guys budget, thousands of dollars goes into EVERY car, not just the Scions.

Originally Posted by blur

But then why buy it to drift it in the first place? Why doesnt Fredric Aasbo keep the Supra he drove over the new tube chassis scion he's getting built? After all, wouldnt that be cheaper and easier to maintain during the season? Are you honestly going to quote me and tell me that converting a drivetrain and dumping tons of cash into a FWD car designed for cool kids is better than a tried and proven platform?

See answers above. It's obvious that you were not aware that the tC meets the rules. I think you had the impression like many, that Scion just tossed some cash FD's way in order to compete. But the car is within the rules of FD, not because they gave them $ to be the only one.

Originally Posted by blur

(btw, I may come off aggressive, but don't take it the wrong way; I find you one of the more respectable members of this site, battling people like me on a daily basis lol)

Comes with the territory I guess...

Originally Posted by blur

The new FD rules need to be stricter. No drivetrain conversions, PERIOD. Keep it simple. Maybe then scion will introduce a car you can actually drift, like they do on TV =) That and the Minami course of Ebisu should be featured.

The rules are changing, but do to so many V8 swaps happening. I think they are trying to bring it back to how it use to be.

Originally Posted by blur

Put it this way, a scion badge equates to a new scion version of the concept, which equates to everything scion currently is putting in their lineup, in our precious FT86. AKA Fuel economy over performance, boxy design cues, and sporty over sport. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Just to show you what kind of crowd buy scions, check out their forums. There one thread, with almost 1 page, about the FT86 II. That's it. They're really excited about this car -_- I read a post from someone who says that he doesnt like the idea of a RWD, his girlfriend drives his car in the winter . . . *facepalm*

I don't get why you would think Scion would be "numb" to having a sports car when they pump money into Motorsports as much as anyone else does currently (besides like F1 or something). So, I highly doubt that your prediction of fuel economy, boxy shape and safeness is accurate. No automotive manufacture is stuck to one train of thought and that's it. The point of a product line is to have something for everyone. In Scions case, I think it's something for every "young" one.

Last part...no need to address. There are noobs in every forum.

[NESW20]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

I have to admit, that anytime I see "F" in the head designation, it always brings up the slave-cam design in my head. Its really the main reason I just shrug at 'em.

haha, you and me both. i REALLY prefer true DOHC. besides, true DOHC heads just seem so much cooler and more substantial. <3 my 3SGTE.