Starts and Downshifting

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by DauntlessFRS

The 1st of September will mark the 2nd week of owning my 2013 FRS... Collectively, I've probably put in about 10-12 hours behind the wheel driving and I still stall at the places listed above.

In other words, you have just begun to learn how to drive the car. Stalling and bucking at this point is expected. You just need practice.

So go practice.

It really is that simple. And it really is that difficult. You're asking both your arms, both your legs, your eyes, your ears, your brain and probably your lungs and heart to coordinate in a way that they never have before. Give yourself a chance to learn.

[DauntlessFRS]

I'm currently in government just reading all your responses becuase I've never once received so many responses on any forums of any kind, so I appropriate you guys a lot. It hasn't even been 24 hours and you guys have sent in so many. So, again, I thank you all. My parents started me off doing the "let the car roll in first with no gas", but it's been almost 2 weeks since then, so maybe I've forgotten the basics. Lol and yes, I'm very fortunate to be in wealthy family, because after I wws denied any V8s, this became my dream car. I'm very lucky... Anyways, I barely ever have clean launches, I either burn rubber or stall or become very close to stalling. I have one question, what does the word "blip" mean? I've heard it so many times, and I haven't looked it up.

[paulca]

"blip" is basically tapping the throttle to flick the revs up.

For rev matching you clutch down, blip the throttle to lift the revs as you shift and then lift the clutch.

I agree however that "rev matching" and "blip shifting" is for after you learn to drive "normally".

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DauntlessFRS

I'm currently in government just reading all your responses becuase I've never once received so many responses on any forums of any kind, so I appropriate you guys a lot. It hasn't even been 24 hours and you guys have sent in so many. So, again, I thank you all. My parents started me off doing the "let the car roll in first with no gas", but it's been almost 2 weeks since then, so maybe I've forgotten the basics. Lol and yes, I'm very fortunate to be in wealthy family, because after I wws denied any V8s, this became my dream car. I'm very lucky... Anyways, I barely ever have clean launches, I either burn rubber or stall or become very close to stalling. I have one question, what does the word "blip" mean? I've heard it so many times, and I haven't looked it up.

Blip is to give a small quick touch of gas. It needs to be done just at the right moment though or has no effect.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by paulca

"blip" is basically tapping the throttle to flick the revs up.

For rev matching you clutch down, blip the throttle to lift the revs as you shift and then lift the clutch.

I agree however that "rev matching" and "blip shifting" is for after you learn to drive "normally".

This ^
People love to throw out the more advanced stuff when the basics are still not mastered. There is nothing difficult about these shifts but if a person still can't even start out well then that needs to be the focus.

[VTEC]

Originally Posted by DauntlessFRS

My parents started me off doing the "let the car roll in first with no gas", but it's been almost 2 weeks since then, so maybe I've forgotten the basics.

Try doing the opposite. Apply gas first, around 1500-2000 rpm and slowly bring up the clutch until you feel the friction point. At this point the car will start accelerating. Once the car starts moving, beginners will feel like they can release the clutch all the way which will either cause the car to stall or suddenly jerk forward. So don't release it. Hold the clutch around that point until the car stops accelerating and holds a steady speed. Then you know the vehicle speed and engine speed are fully matched. Release the clutch all the way and apply more gas.

The reason why I teach people this way is because I think it's easier and smoother to over-rev a little than to under-rev. Over-rev might cause a bit more wear on the clutch, but you're less likely to stall

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by DauntlessFRS

I have one question, what does the word "blip" mean? I've heard it so many times, and I haven't looked it up.

When people say that, they're talking about rev matching on downshifts. You really ought to put off trying to rev match until you get your starts smooth, but here's how it works:

When you upshift (say from third to fourth), the engine RPM will naturally drop a little when you push in the clutch and let your foot off the gas. When you shift to the next gear, the speed of the transmission input speed will also drop. Those drops will come pretty close to matching, making it easier to upshift smoothly.

When you downshift (say from fourth to third), the engine RPM drops, but the transmission input shaft speed in the next gear is going faster. Obviously they have to be brought to the same speed when coupled together by the clutch. The clutch is made to slip some to gradually pull the engine speed back up to match the transmission input shaft speed, but slipping it causes wear. If you try to avoid slipping and dump the clutch too quickly, engine compression will slow the transmission shaft suddenly and feel as if you just slammed on the brakes.

When people say to "blip" the throttle, what they're telling you to do is to jab your foot on the accelerator during downshifts to quickly raise engine RPM to match the rotational speed of the input shaft. You won't get a perfect match, but if you can jump the RPM up close to the speed of the transmission, the clutch will engage cleanly with little slip and no jerk.

HOWEVER, if you give it too much throttle or do it too slowly, you'll raise the RPM too much or let the car slow too much and slip or jerk anyway. If you think about actually matching the revolutions shown on the tachometer to any specific gear, you won't be able to do it. It has to be an intuitive motion.

Keep in mind the car and the transmission input shaft are slowing while you're doing this, so it's a moving target. That's why you have to learn to blip it without overthinking it, because you will never be able to do those mental calculations. I like to think of it as using the accelerator pedal to "toss" the RPM up where they can catch on the transmission speed as it comes down. If you play ring toss at the state fair, you don't think about the number of feet and inches to the bottle or how many newtons will be required to launch the ring the correct distance. You just toss it. If you miss, you adjust your next shot. Same thing with blipping the throttle.

You'll also see some mention of heel/toe shifting. Heel/toe is just rev matching while downshifting and braking hard simultaneously. Suppose you were braking hard into a turn in third and wanted to be in second on the other side to accelerate out. Regular rev matching would require you to take your foot off the brake to blip the throttle. With heel/toe, you keep the ball/toe of your foot on the brake and twist your heel over to the throttle to blip it to rev match.

I'll be completely honest: I can't heel/toe my car. But since I don't track my car, I don't really need to. You can go your entire life without ever needing that skill, so put that out of your mind for now. You really ought not be driving on the street in such a way that you'll need it.

What you need to practice first and foremost is starting. Master starting on flat ground, then master hill starts, then worry about rev matching on downshifts. And seriously, ignore other people and don't worry about how you look to them. The overwhelming majority of them can't even do what you're doing. When you're worried about how other drivers perceive you, you'll overthink your starts trying to make them extra smooth, but overthinking them will screw them up.

[Darth Khan]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

This ^
People love to throw out the more advanced stuff when the basics are still not mastered. There is nothing difficult about these shifts but if a person still can't even start out well then that needs to be the focus.

As a beginner forget all about blipping and rev matching, keep it simple, rev matching can easily be attained using the clutch and the synchro’s.

The following is how I taught both my kids to drive manual, perhaps it will help you understand why you are stalling at lights, or perhaps you will be offended by how basic it is, however like other members have said (PRACTICE MAKE PERFECT)

Go to a flat empty car park and practice getting the feel of the clutch engage point. Like some have said this is pretty high in this car. This means as you lift of clutch pedal there is a point where it will engage with the engine and the car will start to slowly move forward.

PART 1 : Practice With NO GAS. It will teach you where the engage point is.

(IMPORTANT: Make sure road is flat or the car will stall)

Slowly let of the clutch until you feel it bite and the engine revs start to change. THEN STOP letting off the clutch, wait for the car to start moving VERY SLOWLY.

If you come up too far the car WILL stall, if you come up too quick the car will stall, if you don't stop releasing the clutch at the correct time the car will stall.

You will quickly figure out where to stop letting of the clutch and and what speed to release the clutch, do this a few dozen times until you no longer stall the car.

Part 2: Practice Adding a little gas:

Repeat step 1. But first lightly press the gas until the revs are around 1500. Then The car will move forward a little quicker.

PART 3: Practice Adding a little gas on a slight hill:

Repeat step 2 but this time have the car facing up a very slight hill, you will have to press the gas a little more and HOLD the clutch a little longer.

PART 4: You want the clutch and gas movement to be a single step process. As you begin to press the gas you will hear the revs change at the same time you will be letting of the clutch. As clutch begins to engage you will hear the revs change so you can give it a touch more gas at the same time the car is starting to move the more it moves the less clutch you need and the more gas can be applied. (WOW That sounds complex, its not).

If it’s so easy why do I keep stalling at lights?

Easy one, self-inflicted pressure from other road users and trying to rush the movements. Stop worrying about stalling a car is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Stop worrying about it and just put the car in first, get the car moving and put it in 2nd gear. Everybody stalls the car on occasion, rushing the clutch change, not focusing on the road conditions etc. If you do stall the car do not rush into getting going, take your time and apply the techniques you have learned to get the car going.

GOOD LUCK

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Darth Khan

Stop worrying about stalling a car is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It reminds me of a zen koan:

Do not think of a monkey.

If you try not to think of a monkey, you'll think of a monkey and fail. The only way to not think of the monkey is just to not think of the monkey. The only way to not stall the car is to just not stall the car. The way that happens is through enough practice that you don't have to think about it.

If you think about the monkey, you'll stall the car or something. Or maybe you should think about a monkey whenever you try to take off, so you're not thinking about stalling the car.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

It reminds me of a zen koan:

Do not think of a monkey.

If you try not to think of a monkey, you'll think of a monkey and fail. The only way to not think of the monkey is just to not think of the monkey. The only way to not stall the car is to just not stall the car. The way that happens is through enough practice that you don't have to think about it.

If you think about the monkey, you'll stall the car or something. Or maybe you should think about a monkey whenever you try to take off, so you're not thinking about stalling the car.

If you replace "think of" with 'spank' this is a much more entertaining post!


Sorry I channeled my 12 year old self for a second there.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by paulca

Watch "Learning to drive" videos from the UK.

Everything's better with a British accent.

OP, think about cheeky monkeys. They're better.

[Capt Spaulding]

I am most definitely in the "learn without the gas" camp. Head back to the parking lot and work on getting the car rolling using just the clutch. One you feel comfortable with that, do it some more. When you are sure you’ve mastered it, practice a bit longer. Then upshift to second, again without touching the accelerator. Once you can do all that smoothly, every time, then, and only then, introduce the accelerator.

Now, work on learning the feel of the accelerator. You’re fine tuning your senses and reflexes to the sound and feel of the car. Don't look at the tachometer. Feel the force. Oh, wrong lesson. But it's true. At risk of getting metaphysical about it, you’re integrating the car into your neuro-muscular system. It’s like pitching a baseball, it takes repetition and time to get it down. In the end it must coded into muscle memory. You can not throw a good slider while thinking about throwing a good slider. A monkey thinking about throwing a good slider cannot throw a good slider.

For now, forget about blipping and rev matching. That is a much more advanced course.

I’ve been driving standard gearbox cars for over 50 years. I still do a couple of accelerator free starts every now and then to remind myself of the sensations, and try to never use the accelerator when backing the car out of the garage or a parking spot. To me, a standard transmission is a large part of the beauty of “Driving” a car. I personally love "driving" cars. The twins present an excellent opportunity to do just that.

[extrashaky]

You're getting seemingly conflicting advice that all really gets to the same place. Some people are telling you to learn without the gas. Some are telling you to learn with extra RPM. What it really comes down to is that we all learn differently, and what works for some people doesn't work for others.

I'll tell you how I learned back in 1985. My mom and I took her MG Midget to the high school on a Sunday, and I jerked that thing all over the parking lot. The shift pattern in that little car is very tight, and somehow I managed to accidentally take off in third gear by giving it a lot of gas and letting the clutch out very, very slowly. Something clicked when that happened, and afterwards I was finally able to feel the balance between clutch and throttle.

I wouldn't suggest trying to take off in third gear, but the 86 is thoroughly capable of taking off from second. If you're just having a really hard time getting the timing right using the no throttle and lots of throttle methods in first, head to an empty parking lot and change it up by trying to take off in second instead. That sort of lengthens out the process a little, and it may be just what you need to know to compress it back to a first gear start.

[paiceyfan]

I was going to add something, but you guys have it.


Very helpful people here, Op...even the old ones :P