Why I'll never buy another Toyota

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Do bears actually use toilet paper?

But a bear does sh!t in the woods, and if it could use toilet paper it would use Charmin. Duh!

[Hags86]

I think people are making overly simplistic references to ads. I didn't see this ad and think 'I just bought a racecar'.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There is no law that says they have to make such a statement in the ads. It is very clearly stated in the warranty documents.
As I have said I am not supporting their use of track events in their advertising materials but you guys are trying to create a loop hole where there really isn't one.
No the ads do not say your warranty could be denied if you track but they don't say "Ya beat it up we got your back" either.
The ads are just ads not operating instructions.

That's just the thing. The warranty documents do NOT state this clearly. They do say there is an exclusion for misuse and neglect. In which parallel universe is a HPDE event misuse of a sports car? The advertising only gives context for an appropriate use. The warranty handbook is the definitive measure and it doesn't say anything.

People are using the Nissan example of using r35 using launch control voiding the warranty. If it says that in the documentation fair enough. I'd be completely fine with that if they make it clear.

My problem is nowhere does it say in the warranty docs that HPDE and track days affect their warranty. Only after I had a failure and pressed for a response, they came back with their own definition of misuse which is to do the same things they show the car doing in the advertising!

I'm a pretty open-minded and fair guy and honestly I don't think I'm asking for too much. Clear and timely communications, treating the customer with respect. All my communications with them were factual, complimentary and without emotion. But Toyota treated me like a second-class citizen during this process. It was only when the VCAT case was approaching did they change their mind about the warranty. They still refused to document why they denied the warranty claim despite multiple telephone and written requests to do so and they still won't give me a straight answer on whether a HPDE event voids the warranty except to say it's up to them to decide that if something breaks again in future.

Don't care how good the car is or what engineering marvel they come up with next, the post-sales experience for me was so bad it's turned me off the brand for life.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Hags86

I think people are making overly simplistic references to ads. I didn't see this ad and think 'I just bought a racecar'.



That's just the thing. The warranty documents do NOT state this clearly. They do say there is an exclusion for misuse and neglect. In which parallel universe is a HPDE event misuse of a sports car? The advertising only gives context for an appropriate use. The warranty handbook is the definitive measure and it doesn't say anything.

People are using the Nissan example of using r35 using launch control voiding the warranty. If it says that in the documentation fair enough. I'd be completely fine with that if they make it clear.

My problem is nowhere does it say in the warranty docs that HPDE and track days affect their warranty. Only after I had a failure and pressed for a response, they came back with their own definition of misuse which is to do the same things they show the car doing in the advertising!

I'm a pretty open-minded and fair guy and honestly I don't think I'm asking for too much. Clear and timely communications, treating the customer with respect. All my communications with them were factual, complimentary and without emotion. But Toyota treated me like a second-class citizen during this process. It was only when the VCAT case was approaching did they change their mind about the warranty. They still refused to document why they denied the warranty claim despite multiple telephone and written requests to do so and they still won't give me a straight answer on whether a HPDE event voids the warranty except to say it's up to them to decide that if something breaks again in future.

Don't care how good the car is or what engineering marvel they come up with next, the post-sales experience for me was so bad it's tuned me off the brand for life.

I repeat that although I sound like I am defending the dealers and Toyota I do not agree with the practice of promoting a vehicle for track use and then not having at least a partial warranty if used as such. My debate he is whether the use of a track in advertising constitutes a loophole in the warranty coverage.

The technicality still stands that in North America, at least, they do state in the warranty "Misuse – for example, racing & competitive events, off-roading or overloading".
Now, before everybody jumps on the normal "HPDE isn't racing" bandwagon take very careful note of the use of the words "for example". Everybody likes to try to use the wording to skirt the restriction but those are only examples not the definitive list. No, HPDE is not "racing" nor "competitive" but it could still fall under there definition of misuse.
Many, many, many advertisements show the products being used for impossible means or with fantastic results and they do not have disclaimers stating that they really can not or should not do those things. The use of advertisements as a loophole is a losing battle.

Oddly enough I can not even find the full Australia warranty on line which is shady as hell!

Not trying to talk you into loving Toyota again. This is my first one since a brief fling with a Celica back in the 70s so I have no passion or brand loyalty for them. In fact the only reason I have one now at all is that I had a messy breakup with Mitsubishi after an 8 car run with them. The circumstances were similar to yours.

[TrackRider54]

Toyota is a VERY large company. They make large amounts of money. The cost of replacing every component in an 86 is pocket money to them.

Here's where they are missing the boat. Most people who buy an 86 probably fall into two categories. 1) They are young and buying their first car, or 2) They are older and buying a weekend fun car. In either case, from a marketing standpoint, you have the ability to create brand loyalty. The younger buyer will buy several cars over the years. The older buyer may be purchasing cars for family members as well as themselves.

Regardless of the failure, Toyota would do well to replace it. Now...if the same person is always making warranty claims and is clearly abusing and misusing the vehicle, then deny them and hide behind the lawyers.

Why a company will spend millions on advertising, but not spend a few thousand helping a customer I'll never know.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by TrackRider54

Toyota is a VERY large company. They make large amounts of money. The cost of replacing every component in an 86 is pocket money to them.

Here's where they are missing the boat. Most people who buy an 86 probably fall into two categories. 1) They are young and buying their first car, or 2) They are older and buying a weekend fun car. In either case, from a marketing standpoint, you have the ability to create brand loyalty. The younger buyer will buy several cars over the years. The older buyer may be purchasing cars for family members as well as themselves.

Regardless of the failure, Toyota would do well to replace it. Now...if the same person is always making warranty claims and is clearly abusing and misusing the vehicle, then deny them and hide behind the lawyers.

Why a company will spend millions on advertising, but not spend a few thousand helping a customer I'll never know.

How long have you worked for a major automotive company? I am on my third in the last 28 years and believe me they count every single penny. The Shareholders insist on getting every cent back that they can. It may seem like "pocket change" to change every part on one car but they make millions of cars a year. One individual vehicle means NOTHING to them.


I think your extremely narrow view of who buys these cars is way off base. Yes there are some in each of your categories but the range is much, much broader than just those two segments. They will create many loyal customers from those that have no issues or have their issues corrected quickly and efficiently. Once again though if there are one or a thousand cars where the owners can not get their issues resolved for one reason or another it means nothing to Toyota as a whole. Any sales lost due to those few that are dissatisfied are probably equal to the corporate toilet paper budget for a week. People are individuals and think on a personal scale but automotive companies (not just Toyota) do not think on that same scale. They can't think that way any more that the individual can think on the levels they need to. If enough people get fed up to reach the corporate mind set they will indeed take action but those numbers are so high that we as individuals cant even think that way.
It sucks for that one or a thousand people but that is the reality of the business.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

How long have you worked for a major automotive company? I am on my third in the last 28 years and believe me they count every single penny. The Shareholders insist on getting every cent back that they can. It may seem like "pocket change" to change every part on one car but they make millions of cars a year. One individual vehicle means NOTHING to them.

This doesn't just apply to individuals, it applies to corporations as well. Over the past 20 years I've worked for 3 companies. One was an international company with 70,000 employees in just about every first and second world country. The second was a 40,000 employee company, primarily doing business in the US. The third (my current employer) is a regional company with about 3,200 employees.

The leadership of my current employer thinks like individuals buying cars. They think the vendors should bend to their every whim and expect to be treated as a "big deal". I have to remind them that with some companies they deal with they are a "big deal" but for others, such as Microsoft or Cisco or Apple, we are a very small rounding error in their financial statement. If we disappeared tomorrow as a customer the sales guy might notice but no one else would as they probably pick up and lose customers our size every day. I also remind them that the last two companies I worked for had more IT employees than my current employer has overall employees (they love that one...not).

Same thing with car buyers. Yes, to some extent loyalty is important to the local dealer, but probably not to the manufacturer. The manufacturers gain and lose thousands of customers every day. They also recognize that it is a very small portion of the car buying public that is brand loyal any longer. Frankly, I don't know anyone (except truck buyers who are staunchly loyal) who still buy the same model over and over. Heck, I've never bought the same make or model car back to back in my entire history of buying cars with the exception of two Chevy Astros that were the family travel vehicles and that wasn't out of loyalty as much as the second one was a steal of a deal at the time.

[TrackRider54]

Funny thing is, I've also worked for large multinational companies, large healthcare companies, military join-ventures, local and state government.

I don't care what vertical you are in, as said above, you count every dollar. Those dollars come from customers.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by TrackRider54

Those dollars come from customers.

Agreed.

I have owned a lot of older Toyotas, and currently own 3 including my FRS. I always recommended them to my friends and family. However, I am pretty upset because my FRS seems to have the faulty clutch engagement piece that causes the TOB to inevitably explode.

Toyota finally released a TSB for it, but it was 1 month after my 3 year warranty ran out. I called them asking if they would meet me half way for the repair, but they said that it was completely my responsibility.

Now I have a 3 year old car that will probably leave me stranded on the road because of a faulty part that Toyota has acknowledged is subpar quality.

Best believe this is the last Toyota I buy, and I have been sure to point other people towards different brands after my experience.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by TrackRider54

Funny thing is, I've also worked for large multinational companies, large healthcare companies, military join-ventures, local and state government.

I don't care what vertical you are in, as said above, you count every dollar. Those dollars come from customers.

And they gain new ones every day so don't care if a few walk away pissed off. They know they will never please everybody all the time and won't even attempt it.

[TrackRider54]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

And they gain new ones every day so don't care if a few walk away pissed off. They know they will never please everybody all the time and won't even attempt it.

I'm glad not all companies operate this way.

Some customers can't be pleased, and you "fire the customer" as one of my old bosses used to say. If you have a customer that's costing you more than they are paying you, it's a business decision to let them go. I think we can all name a few PITA customers we've had to deal with in our careers.

Back when I had a Jeep Liberty CRD turbo diesel, it had two torque converters go bad under warranty due to the torque of the little diesel. It was a poorly engineered part, but the dealer had no alternative. I bought a Suncoast unit and the dealer covered the labor under warranty. That's how you treat customers.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

As I have said I am not supporting their use of track events in their advertising materials but you guys are trying to create a loop hole where there really isn't one.

We're not looking for a loophole, we're disappointed that Toyota and Subaru aren't standing behind their product.

If they advertise it as being on track I expect it to be a non-issue when a MANUFACTURER DEFECT needs to be repaired, instead it's the experience of many that their Toyota representatives squirm and bullshit through their teeth to not stand behind their product or do any work to support the car, sometimes regardless of whether or not it actually gets used at performance driving events.

If they wrote in the warranty agreement that "misuse and abuse" included high performance driving, track use, autox, etc. we wouldn't be having this discussion... and a lot fewer people would have bothered to buy this car. Instead they built in their own loophole and spent millions of dollars plastering videos and images where they can, sponsoring drivers in competitive events, telling consumers they built this thing to be driven hard.

I know you love playing devil's advocate, but let's be reasonable here, there's been enough stories over the years, would you recommend to a friend who wanted to track/autox/drive at 10/10ths a car with a warranty to buy a new 86 or BRZ?

I pulled up the MX-5 warranty agreement, there's no provision against competitive or timed events like there is for the 86, only "racing" and "loading" with a picture of a checkered flag.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I repeat that although I sound like I am defending the dealers and Toyota I do not agree with the practice of promoting a vehicle for track use and then not having at least a partial warranty if used as such. My debate he is whether the use of a track in advertising constitutes a loophole in the warranty coverage.

The technicality still stands that in North America, at least, they do state in the warranty "Misuse – for example, racing & competitive events, off-roading or overloading".
Now, before everybody jumps on the normal "HPDE isn't racing" bandwagon take very careful note of the use of the words "for example". Everybody likes to try to use the wording to skirt the restriction but those are only examples not the definitive list. No, HPDE is not "racing" nor "competitive" but it could still fall under there definition of misuse.
Many, many, many advertisements show the products being used for impossible means or with fantastic results and they do not have disclaimers stating that they really can not or should not do those things. The use of advertisements as a loophole is a losing battle.

Oddly enough I can not even find the full Australia warranty on line which is shady as hell!

Not trying to talk you into loving Toyota again. This is my first one since a brief fling with a Celica back in the 70s so I have no passion or brand loyalty for them. In fact the only reason I have one now at all is that I had a messy breakup with Mitsubishi after an 8 car run with them. The circumstances were similar to yours.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

We're not looking for a loophole, we're disappointed that Toyota and Subaru aren't standing behind their product.

If they advertise it as being on track I expect it to be a non-issue when a MANUFACTURER DEFECT needs to be repaired, instead it's the experience of many that their Toyota representatives squirm and bullshit through their teeth to not stand behind their product or do any work to support the car, sometimes regardless of whether or not it actually gets used at performance driving events.

If they wrote in the warranty agreement that "misuse and abuse" included high performance driving, track use, autox, etc. we wouldn't be having this discussion... and a lot fewer people would have bothered to buy this car. Instead they built in their own loophole and spent millions of dollars plastering videos and images where they can, sponsoring drivers in competitive events, telling consumers they built this thing to be driven hard.

I know you love playing devil's advocate, but let's be reasonable here, there's been enough stories over the years, would you recommend to a friend who wanted to track/autox/drive at 10/10ths a car with a warranty to buy a new 86 or BRZ?

I pulled up the MX-5 warranty agreement, there's no provision against competitive or timed events like there is for the 86, only "racing" and "loading" with a picture of a checkered flag.

But it is there in black and white. People just chose to ignore the fact that the "misuse" items listed are just EXAMPLES not an all inclusive list.

If a stock component is pushed beyond it's street use engineered specs is it really a "manufacture's defect"?
I overheat and blow the coil packs is that the company's fault?

[TrackRider54]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I expect it to be a non-issue when a MANUFACTURER DEFECT needs to be repaired

Me too my friend.

Funny story about track days. I was doing a track day on a motorcycle I used to have. It quit running leaving me stranded on the side of the track waiting on the crash truck. The owner of the dealer I bought the bike from was at the same track day. He helped me get an appointment scheduled to get it fixed in his service department.

Not all manufacturers are butt holes. Below is a letter I wrote to the president of a motorcycle company. I later visited the headquarters and found my letter posted in the break room for the employees to read.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

But it is there in black and white. People just chose to ignore the fact that the "misuse" items listed are just EXAMPLES not an all inclusive list.

If a stock component is pushed beyond it's street use engineered specs is it really a "manufacture's defect"?
I overheat and blow the coil packs is that the company's fault?

So it boils down to you're totally happy to let the paper pushing service adviser determine what misuse is and not the people who engineered the car.

The coilpack is a convenient example because I've broken at least two of them. It doesn't matter to me whether I did it on a closed circuit or not, I can go find a quiet public road and without breaking any laws put a totally stock car through a WORSE environment than I did on the cool January day my first one failed. In my instance the only piece of the puzzle on that track day that could not be replicated on a stock car on public roads in a legal fashion was the speeds of 65-100+ mph. And I think we'll both agree at those speeds you've got a much higher cooling effect happening

Hell I don't mind that it failed, I mind that they didn't own up and fix it under warranty, sure throw me under the bus once warranty is over, never truly fix the problem, I can live with that. But my car doesn't run, I haven't done anything in my view that constitutes mis-use (no moneyshifts, maintenance performed on time, never overheated, etc.) and now my car doesn't run right and for an hour of labor Toyota can fix it but chose not to.