'17 Toyota 86 vs '17 Maza MX-5

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Agree with your points but worth noting that the front tires on the double wishbone car won't be flat to the pavement either due to camber gain under braking. Will be worse with soft suspension. But better than a macpherson strut car (with aggressive static negative camber).

Agreed, a more accurate original statement would've been "tires have more grip when they're flatter to the pavement".

Related to that, with double wishbones (or multilink) you could tune in more anti-dive so you get less brake dive without increasing spring rate

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Agreed, a more accurate original statement would've been "tires have more grip when they're flatter to the pavement".

Related to that, with double wishbones (or multilink) you could tune in more anti-dive so you get less brake dive without increasing spring rate

How so? McPherson struts anti dive is controlled by the LCA angle just as for double a arm. Should be no difference.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by totopo

they are usually multilink for packaging reasons (bigger trunk or bigger engine). Multilink is a lot closer to double a than macpherson. Most of them are semi trailing arm, which is a super angled lower A with 2 upper arms instead of one a arm to spread the upper attachment point for packaging. None of the ones for performance use the rear stock as a suspension point.

F1 is still double wishbone: http://scarbsf1.com/?p=3349

The super GT BRZ uses double wishbone:
https://www.subaru-msm.com/global/SU...e/detail/8.jpg

are these not race cars? What non-homologated frame based race car doesn't use a double A? If anything the multilink on them would be to split up one or both of the wishbones.

You provide nothing but your opinions, why should I believe anything you say? you just pull stuff out of your butt whereas every resource like everywhere says unequal double A is the best. Show me something concrete. Your opinions do not count for anything to me.

Not really interested in whether my opinions count with anyone.

The rear suspension in F1 still also includes a toe link, so multi link. Earlier iterations included trailing arms so multilink. Each of your links (har har ) is to a multi link. It is correct that a multi link and a double wishbone are functionally indistinguishable. Road cars also benefit from an integral link, missing from most multi link. Not useful on a race car.

There's no doubt the BRZ is much the faster car of the two if equipped with the same tires. There is no basis for claiming that the MX5 is a better car than the BRZ. Certainly not because of the front wishbones which are of no importance on a road car.

There are a lot of "interesting" opinions on this site, many of them wrong. Interestingly, many holders of wrong opinions differ with me. That is no coincidence.

When trying to trash the McPherson strut in favour of the double wishbone it is a good idea to remember what front suspension was chosen for the Ultimate Driving Machine (which it isn't of course, but that's a different debate).

McPherson strut suspensions are every bit the equal of double wishbones for handling and have other big advantages. One huge advantage McPherson struts have is far better fade performance. They can take the heat better and they have much bigger internals.

PS your comment about most multi link being "semi trailing" is ridiculous. Have you ever tried to drive a powerful car with semi trailing arm suspension? Or even a not powerful one? You seem not to know much about what you write about.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by Gforce

Not really interested in whether my opinions count with anyone.

The rear suspension in F1 still also includes a toe link, so multi link. Earlier iterations included trailing arms so multilink. Each of your links (har har ) is to a multi link. It is correct that a multi link and a double wishbone are functionally indistinguishable. Road cars also benefit from an integral link, missing from most multi link. Not useful on a race car.

There's no doubt the BRZ is much the faster car of the two if equipped with the same tires. There is no basis for claiming that the MX5 is a better car than the BRZ. Certainly not because of the front wishbones which are of no importance on a road car.

There are a lot of "interesting" opinions on this site, many of them wrong. Interestingly, many holders of wrong opinions differ with me. That is no coincidence.

When trying to trash the McPherson strut in favour of the double wishbone it is a good idea to remember what front suspension was chosen for the Ultimate Driving Machine (which it isn't of course, but that's a different debate).

McPherson strut suspensions are every bit the equal of double wishbones for handling and have other big advantages. One huge advantage McPherson struts have is far better fade performance. They can take the heat better and they have much bigger internals.

PS your comment about most multi link being "semi trailing" is ridiculous. Have you ever tried to drive a powerful car with semi trailing arm suspension? Or even a not powerful one? You seem not to know much about what you write about.

Is this how you win arguments online? You just keep saying your opinion is true without any source, claim everyone else is wrong, and repeat ad nauseum until people get tired of arguing with you?

No one said double a is better than multi-link. It's hard to compare because multi-link encompasses so many differing options. That being said, most modern multi links are fairly similar to double a. They may be even superior. They are way too complicated for me and I don't really understand them. But what I do understand is none of them are remotely close to a macpherson. The GT-R uses a semi-trailing arm multi-link. The BMW rear multilink (the z-axle) is also a semi-trailing arm based multi-link. I thought the porsche one was too but I concede I may be wrong on that one. I know porsches used to use straight up trailing arm, but I am not familiar with their new multi-link. I guess the GT-R and BMW's are undriveable because of their semi-trailing arm based multi-link.

No one is saying you can't make a good car with macpherson. Yes, BMW's are just fine with macpherson. The benefits you get with macpherson, though, AREN'T with roadholding, they are with price and packaging. Like comparing the 86 to the miata, you can say with the macpherson, the 86 is able to be cheaper, and able to fit in a wide boxster engine, so it can have a lower CoG.

What you can't say, is that macpherson is equal to double A arm in terms of roadholding performance. Race cars all use double A if they can (or some multilink that's really really close to a double A), and the reason is they can choose better camber and toe curves. Double A can have similar sized shocks. You don't need the strengthening bits and it connects to the lower control arm instead of the top of the knuckle.

I really can't believe that this argument has dragged on this long. Are you doing even the most cursory amount of research? Just googling will show you it's basically impossible to find anything that says macpherson is superior to uneven length double wishbone.

Like if you want to argue with your "opinion." What authority do you have to make anyone believe your opinion? Why don't you show me like anyone reputable who actually says macpherson are better or equal to double A. Your opinion is flat out wrong and not based in reality, only your wishes. Maybe your delusion comes from your wish to believe that the 86 somehow is some ultimate track car when really it is a fun entry-level budget sports car. Does anyone say the miata is some ultimate track car because it has double A? No. But the statement that it has better suspension geometry for the track is true.

Here is another video you won't watch:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftf3KYHTOYU"]SLA Suspension vs MacPherson Strut - YouTube[/ame]

Look at all the WTAC cars that don't have homologation. They basically convert macpherson setup cars into double a or very similar multi-link.

Like, are you a troll? you have to be a troll right? just wasting my time on this useless argument.

[Syche]

Holy shit this is still going I thought it would last an hour tops ... guess I was wrong


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[14stu]

If you want a convertible, the ND wins. If you want to be able to fit anything larger than a duffel bag or need a "backseat", the twins win.

The two are incredibly well matched. At an autocross, the ND is faster (twins got swapped classes because of the difference) but on a track the twins are faster (with the same tires).

There isn't much difference in this new comparison than the old twins vs NC debate. The new shorter gearing of the '17's help to improve the twins and the lower weight of the ND improved the Miata.

We don't need to compete with our Miata brethren. We are cut from the same cloth.

[tanner]

Well I didn't expect this thread to go this way

Get out and drive and enjoy what you got, I couldn't really care what the other car has, gonna have fun at the GP track tomorrow, so there!! :p

[Canehda]

since someone brought up Porsches, I think if you had 30-45k to burn a 996 Carrera S would be quite the way to spend it. The looks are starting to grow on me and a well taken care of one still has presence...

The way a 911 squeezes every ounce of performance from the rear tires in braking, mid corner and exit makes it worth every penny imo

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by totopo

Is this how you win arguments online? You just keep saying your opinion is true without any source, claim everyone else is wrong, and repeat ad nauseum until people get tired of arguing with you?


Like, are you a troll? you have to be a troll right? just wasting my time on this useless argument.

You realize that the dude is Ubersuber/Suberman right? Remember him from before he was banned?

[Gforce]

I got to thinking about this knowledge and experience thing that seems a popular form of personal attack on this forum. I started counting the number of different types of suspensions I have actually driven. I stopped counting at 25. Then there would be the number of different tires....

From the SLA front/ live axle leaf spring rear I learned to drive on, and heel and toe, double clutch and 9-3 steering methods, to a McLaren 12C with active roll control I think I have enough actual experience to give useful, accurate opinions.

I only post what I consider to be accurate and useful information and correct, supportable opinions. There are apparently those on this board who find self confident people threatening to their own security. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but there are no alternative facts.

The MX5 and the BRZ are two corporate auto industry answers to the same question: how can you make a cheap sportscar to sell in enough volume to make a profit?

Mazda started with a clean sheet except for the engine. They said the Lotus Élan (the first one) was an inspiration. The Elan ran Triumph Herald SLA front and Chapman strut rear suspension and was, in my experience, possibly the most delightful road car to drive from a handling perspective.

Subaru started with a new version of their very capable small sedan, the Impreza. The Impreza handles exceptionally well in all its versions and can be made to be very fast indeed. Following similar upgrades the BRZ can likewise be steadily improved.

The results of the two manufacturers decisions differ for those reasons.

With the NC Mazda adopted the suspension they had designed for the then new RX8 (a tail happy car, the rotary engine delivered a lot of power at high rpm). Mazda made a profit by building, so far, only two versions of their chassis in nearly thirty years. Subaru, assuming it and Toyota are making profits from this car, have built one version so far. The only upgrade has been to (finally) lower the rear spring rate and got better dampers (Sachs are now at least an option).

The BRZ is faster than the MX5 on the same tires. I'm predicting the 2017 BRZ will be even faster relative to the ND MX5 because previous versions of the BRZ were too tail happy particularly in transitions.

The MX5 no doubt can be made faster yet by fitting stiffer springs and bars but then so can the BRZ.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Gforce

Not really interested in whether my opinions count with anyone.

And yet you keep coming back and arguing? If you REALLY didn't care, you wouldn't keep going.

Originally Posted by Gforce

I got to thinking about this knowledge and experience thing that seems a popular form of personal attack on this forum. I started counting the number of different types of suspensions I have atually driven. I stopped counting at 25. Then there would be the number of different tires....

From the SLA front/ live axle leaf spring rear I learned to drive on, and heel and toe, double clutch and 9-3 steering methods, to a McLaren 12C with active roll control I think I have enough actual experience to give useful, accurate opinions.

I only post what I consider to be accurately driven useful information and correct, supportable opinions. There are apparently those on this board who find self confident people threatening to their own security. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but there are no alternative facts.

And going, and going, and going. Do you suffer from narcissistic personality disorder?

Originally Posted by Gforce

The rear suspension in F1 still also includes a toe link, so multi link. Earlier iterations included trailing arms so multilink. Each of your links (har har ) is to a multi link. It is correct that a multi link and a double wishbone are functionally indistinguishable. Road cars also benefit from an integral link, missing from most multi link. Not useful on a race car.

So, since the front suspension always has a tierod does that make it impossible to have double wishbones front?

What makes it multi link is that the wishbones are multiple arms, not that there's a toe link. There are plenty of true double wishbone setups with a toe arm. Wishbones (or A-arms) got their name because of their shape. Two attachment points at the chassis and one at the knuckle/upright, making them look like a turkey wishbone or letter A. Are you talking about H arms that lock the knuckle/upright into place with no ability to adjust toe?

Originally Posted by Gforce

There's no doubt the BRZ is much the faster car of the two if equipped with the same tires. There is no basis for claiming that the MX5 is a better car than the BRZ. Certainly not because of the front wishbones which are of no importance on a road car.

First, I said the suspension design is better, not that it's an overall better car. Secondly, SCCA dropped the FRS/BRZ to DS because the ND Miata was faster on comparable tires. So again, you're wrong.

Originally Posted by Gforce

There are a lot of "interesting" opinions on this site, many of them wrong. Interestingly, many holders of wrong opinions differ with me. That is no coincidence.

Front and center being wrong is you. Once again you're claiming you know more about suspension than engineers that do this for a living.

Originally Posted by Gforce

When trying to trash the McPherson strut in favour of the double wishbone it is a good idea to remember what front suspension was chosen for the Ultimate Driving Machine (which it isn't of course, but that's a different debate).

It's also a good idea to remember that manufacturers factor in material cost, assembly cost and packing requirements when designing cars. Take a look at the i8 though, it's not macpherson strut. Neither is the M6 GT3:

https://www.bmw-motorsport.com/en/to...-gt3-gtlm.html



That's not the first BMW race car modified to have double wishbones when the production car is macpherson strut, and it definitely won't be the last one.

The current 5 series production car is wishbones too:

Originally Posted by Gforce

McPherson strut suspensions are every bit the equal of double wishbones for handling and have other big advantages. One huge advantage McPherson struts have is far better fade performance. They can take the heat better and they have much bigger internals.

That's simply not true as a blanket statement. They need stronger internals because they're not just a shock, they're an integral link in the suspension. With double wishbones or multilink the shocks can be lighter because they're only doing one job. Fade resistance is also highly situational and based on design. There's plenty of struts that have terrible resistance to fade and overheat very easily.

Originally Posted by Gforce

PS your comment about most multi link being "semi trailing" is ridiculous. Have you ever tried to drive a powerful car with semi trailing arm suspension? Or even a not powerful one? You seem not to know much about what you write about.

Pot, kettle.

[Gforce]

More lame attempts at personal attacks. Yet the replies keep coming.

Funny you should mention H pattern LCA. The MX5 came with those originally and no toe link.

As for the rest of your post you really need to brush up on your logic.

Just a few pointers: is the later 5 series BMW and its relation the 7 series front suspension double wishbone or multi link?

Audi uses similar virtual pivot front suspension as does a version of the Ford Focus. Multi link or strut?

In what way does a steering link tie rod locate the suspension? Isn't that a misnomer on your part?

Particularly enjoyed the pot kettle, you seem blissfully unaware of the full implications of that remark, inaccurate though it is.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Gforce

More lame attempts at personal attacks. Yet the replies keep coming.

Really, you didn't start claiming everyone else was wrong? My question about narcissistic personality disorder was genuine. You've been banned how many times, and keep coming back to prove your superiority? Textbook definition:

Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others.

Originally Posted by Gforce

Funny you should mention H pattern LCA. The MX5 came with those originally and no toe link.

And your point is?

Originally Posted by Gforce

As for the rest of your post you really need to brush up on your logic.

Translation, you know you're wrong and just refuse to admit it.

Originally Posted by Gforce

Just a few pointers: is the later 5 series BMW and its relation the 7 series front suspension double wishbone or multi link?

Again, what's your point? You claimed they were all struts, I proved they aren't. Also proved they have swapped from strut to double wishbone on their factory backed race cars because it was substantially better.

Originally Posted by Gforce

Audi uses similar virtual pivot front suspension as does a version of the Ford Focus. Multi link or strut?

Similar to who? The BMW 5 series? The 5 series is definitely not a modified strut. Also, what's your point here? Those systems still have the same drawback (poor camber curve) as a traditional macpherson strut.

Originally Posted by Gforce

In what way does a steering link tie rod locate the suspension? Isn't that a misnomer on your part?

You claimed that a separate toe link made a setup multi link instead of double wishbone. I simply pointed out that a tie rod is used in essentially all front suspension setups, and is nothing more than a moveable toe link. Multi link actually refers to the main arms being multiple separate links - we have a control and a trailing link that make up the lower arm. The toe link is totally independent, it doesn't control the vertical, lateral or lengthwise location of the wheel, just the direction it points.

Originally Posted by Gforce

Particularly enjoyed the pot kettle, you seem blissfully unaware of the full implications of that remark, inaccurate though it is.

You're the only one unaware here. You're making bold claims about how struts are every bit as good, when they simply aren't. They can work very well, but are a still a compromise. Will the majority of drivers know the difference, probably not, but that doesn't mean there isn't a difference.

You're arguing as if everyone else has been saying that struts are garbage and can't work well. That's simply not the case, and if that's all you're getting from this you seriously need to go re-read the thread.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by wparsons

And yet you keep coming back and arguing? If you REALLY didn't care, you wouldn't keep going.



And going, and going, and going. Do you suffer from narcissistic personality disorder?



.

Rhetorical, I assume.

Did you have to look that up? Or were you already somehow aware of the definition?