Twins future question

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

It's still expensive, the heads would need to be redesigned and the block's oil and coolant passages would have to be revised.

What I should have said is that it's easily doable within the current engine's size (and weight), but it IS a significant redesign and that it's not economical. Much cheaper to add a turbo system.

I guess my point is that big engines don't need to be heavy. Look at the LS3: 6 liters, 430 hp and lighter than the FA20.
BMW's N54 is a 3 liter, makes up to 275 hp and weighs 40lbs less than the FA20.
The EJ25 weighs about the same as an FA20 despite being larger in displacement and having a turbo system.


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Ahhh that makes more sense.



I will never cease to be amazed at how they keep getting more and more stock power out of lighter and smaller engines.
When you consider that my old 1970 R/T's 440 (7.2 liter) magnum weighed in at 670 pounds and produced a blistering 280 HP (stock) it is easy to see how far things have progressed. Half the weight with twice the HP is nothing to sneeze at.

[Braces]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

It's still expensive, the heads would need to be redesigned and the block's oil and coolant passages would have to be revised.

What I should have said is that it's easily doable within the current engine's size (and weight), but it IS a significant redesign and that it's not economical. Much cheaper to add a turbo system.

I guess my point is that big engines don't need to be heavy. Look at the LS3: 6 liters, 430 hp and lighter than the FA20.
BMW's N54 is a 3 liter, makes up to 275 hp and weighs 40lbs less than the FA20.
The EJ25 weighs about the same as an FA20 despite being larger in displacement and having a turbo system.



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I did a quick google search.

FA20 engine weighs 377lbs
LS3 over 400lbs
N54 around 430lbs.

Are you sure they are not heavier?

For what its worth .... the LS3 engine based on weight and output is amazing.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Ahhh that makes more sense.



I will never cease to be amazed at how they keep getting more and more stock power out of lighter and smaller engines.
When you consider that my old 1970 R/T's 440 (7.2 liter) magnum weighed in at 670 pounds and produced a blistering 280 HP (stock) it is easy to see how far things have progressed. Half the weight with twice the HP is nothing to sneeze at.

Iron blocks and heads are heavy lol!
I think we won't see much improvement in engine weights now that most cars already have an all aluminum motor. More expensive cars can go a bit further with a full magnesium alloy block and heads (like BMWs N52), but the gains aren't anywhere close to switching from iron to aluminum.


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[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Stroker crank has been done, looks like it's not a huge change to the engine's life. I wouldn't want to be the guy pioneering an overbore on this block though. Big NA gains will be headwork from what I can see, but that's pricey and forced induction will be more bang for your buck.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I fully understand the concept and as stated we used to do it on a regular basis on our big block (and small for that matter) V8s. I disputed the "Easily doable" statement when it comes to these blocks. There just is not enough space to start boring them out. Hell they can blow apart with a bit of FI as it is without thing things down even more. I may have missed reading about them on here if they exist.

They use liners. Once cylinders are machined and liners are installed, boring and special honing is carried out using a dummy head. Additionally, they use forged pistons.

[nikitopo]

Here is a block with the liners:

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Braces

I did a quick google search.



FA20 engine weighs 377lbs

LS3 over 400lbs

N54 around 430lbs.



Are you sure they are not heavier?



For what its worth .... the LS3 engine based on weight and output is amazing.

Sorry I borked a number on the BMW motor. I meant N52, not N54. The N52 is NA and magnesium alloy, the N54 is twin turbo and aluminum. There's an LS motor that the swap guys claim is lighter than the FA20 too.


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[Dadhawk]

I've broken the code on the Twins future...

[Wise]

https://drivetribe.com/p/ATKkqSJRT5O...SB6eX3_mo1EtkA

Article on Drivetribe, 13 cars that will become classics in 20 years.

GT86 is number 2.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Wise

https://drivetribe.com/p/ATKkqSJRT5O...SB6eX3_mo1EtkA

Article on Drivetribe, 13 cars that will become classics in 20 years.

GT86 is number 2.

Their opinion and only their opinion. No science or data to support it.

[Wise]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Their opinion and only their opinion. No science or data to support it.

Yeah there isn't. It's a nice mention though.

I think these cars will end up like the NA Miatas or 240Z Fairlady. They'll bottom out for awhile and then clean examples will see a demand.

Finding a clean example in 20 years is going to be quite a task, though at the rate my mileage is going (16700 after 4.5 years) I'll barely be at 90,000 miles in 20 years.

[Gforce]

Stroker motors are heavier because they have heavier cranks, the heaviest component in an aluminum block engine. They also usually fit longer rods, also steel and heavy.

Subaru already makes a stroker variation of the FA20, the FB 20. It would be child's play for them to combine the 86 mm bore with the 90 mm stroke but they won't. To get to 2.5 they need a 94 mm bore as well, and Subaru already makes one of those also, the FB 25. That's massively bigger for such a small car but it will fit. After all somebody shoehorned a Ferrari V8 in there already. Why they didn't wait for the turbo V6 Alfa/Maserati version is a mystery. One would think 500 HP was "enough".

They also make a turbo version of the FA20 which you just know would drop right into the BRZ engine bay. Throw away that juvenile intake noise generator and take a peek at how much room there is in front of the FA 20, room for a pair of cylinders let alone a turbo.

Subaru and Toyota won't turbo this car because it would increase the price and alter the essence of the car. FI would add at least $5k to the production cost.

Says the man with his eForce Supercharger....expensive mod but really, really worth adding.

[imnotsureaboutbrz]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Their opinion and only their opinion. No science or data to support it.

But I will say this... In 16-20 years it will be hard to find an original, unmodified m/t Brz/86...

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by imnotsureaboutbrz

But I will say this... In 16-20 years it will be hard to find an original, unmodified m/t Brz/86...

You could say that about the fiesta st, WRX, Civic Si, Fiata, or any other affordable sporty car.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Gforce

Stroker motors are heavier because they have heavier cranks, the heaviest component in an aluminum block engine. They also usually fit longer rods, also steel and heavy.

Subaru already makes a stroker variation of the FA20, the FB 20. It would be child's play for them to combine the 86 mm bore with the 90 mm stroke but they won't. To get to 2.5 they need a 94 mm bore as well, and Subaru already makes one of those also, the FB 25. That's massively bigger for such a small car but it will fit. After all somebody shoehorned a Ferrari V8 in there already. Why they didn't wait for the turbo V6 Alfa/Maserati version is a mystery. One would think 500 HP was "enough".

They also make a turbo version of the FA20 which you just know would drop right into the BRZ engine bay. Throw away that juvenile intake noise generator and take a peek at how much room there is in front of the FA 20, room for a pair of cylinders let alone a turbo.

Subaru and Toyota won't turbo this car because it would increase the price and alter the essence of the car. FI would add at least $5k to the production cost.

Says the man with his eForce Supercharger....expensive mod but really, really worth adding.

Everybody looks at the space and says "loads of room". Would it pass a crash test with that space filled? How about the maximum permitted damage value at 10 mph crash test? Did you even know there WAS a maximum permitted damage value crash test? There is, I assure you. How does the space that your SC or the FA20 that "drops right in" takes up effect the pedestrian impact hood buffer? Does it have any effect on the partial frontal crash limits? Did you crash test a car with your exact set up to determine it could be imported into the USA with your SC on it? How would a larger displacement/FI engine impact their ability to ship the car to other markets? Did you know that Europe did not get the 5hp increase because of emissions? That was only a 5hp increase! How are Toyota and Subaru using the carbon credits that they would save on this car? Should they up the displacement and FI it and drop the size of the engines in the Tacoma and WRX in order to balance their credits.

There are probably a thousand or more other considerations that people do not know or care about when they start changing up engines so there is much more to it than they don't want to increase the cost of the car.