Twins future question

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by Gil Scott Heron

I'm wondering if the automatic equipped BRZ/86 torque dip is less noticeable due to converter slippage and the computer selecting the gear.

When driving my 6 spd. I just keep the RPM up, because, after all, it IS a four banger. I just chalk it up to normal driving procedure for this particular machine.

My 2001 Miata has no torque dip, but it will occasionally scare the hell out of you if you're trying to pull out into traffic and you're not up in the RPM range.

I drive an AT and the dip/flat spot is apparent. I've also driven a MT and can feel it. It's about the same IMHO. Like you, I just keep the revs up.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Yes, it is obvious during normal "non-aggressive" driving. The remedy is to rev the shit out of the motor.

Back-in-the-day ....... we had a simple solution to the "torque dip" ....... we simply pushed on the gas pedal a bit harder.......


humfrz

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Yes, it is obvious during normal "non-aggressive" driving. The remedy is to rev the shit out of the motor.

Or the reverse. I rarely shift at over 4K during normal driving. I even merge onto the highway without going over 4 sometimes and have zero issues keeping up. It is the people that want to cruise along at 3800 to 4200K and just step on the gas to speed up that have the issue not those that stay below or plow through it.

[PetrolioBenzina]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Back-in-the-day ....... we had a simple solution to the "torque dip" ....... we simply pushed on the gas pedal a bit harder.......
humfrz

That would involve learning how to do well with what you have, despite what physical or mechanical limitations the machine might have. These days, "aint nobody got time 'fo dat". That's why I get left for dead on anything resembling a straight bit of road, but snuggle right up to that gas-and-brakes-only ass in the turns, and they have no idea why it happens.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Or the reverse. I rarely shift at over 4K during normal driving. I even merge onto the highway without going over 4 sometimes and have zero issues keeping up. It is the people that want to cruise along at 3800 to 4200K and just step on the gas to speed up that have the issue not those that stay below or plow through it.

To say that this car can't keep up with normal day to day traffic is just stupid.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Or the reverse. I rarely shift at over 4K during normal driving. I even merge onto the highway without going over 4 sometimes and have zero issues keeping up. It is the people that want to cruise along at 3800 to 4200K and just step on the gas to speed up that have the issue not those that stay below or plow through it.

Likewise. I just drive around mostly in the torque dip. Then, when I push harder on the gas to go faster ...... the machine does what I would expect it to do ....... it goes faster ......


humfrz

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Yes, it is obvious during normal "non-aggressive" driving. The remedy is to rev the shit out of the motor.

That's not unique to this car though, S2000, RX-7, Cayman, Celica, every 2-stroke bike worth mentioning, etc.

It's just odd that so many people who bought this thing and supposedly understood what they were paying tens of thousands of dollars for bitch about it incessantly, and they just ignore the fact that it makes an insane amount of torque below 3.5k rpm for an NA 2.0L 4 banger which is the only reason why it's noticeable imo. Nobody would talk about a dip if it just sucked across the board under 5k rpm.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

I drive an AT and the dip/flat spot is apparent. I've also driven a MT and can feel it. It's about the same IMHO. Like you, I just keep the revs up.

it is noticeable especially if you floor it from a stop but with how smooth the torque converter is, along with the relatively quick shifts, i always felt the torque dip was less noticeable than with a MT..

[Da Brz]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

That's not unique to this car though, S2000, RX-7, Cayman, Celica, every 2-stroke bike worth mentioning, etc.

It's just odd that so many people who bought this thing and supposedly understood what they were paying tens of thousands of dollars for bitch about it incessantly, and they just ignore the fact that it makes an insane amount of torque below 3.5k rpm for an NA 2.0L 4 banger which is the only reason why it's noticeable imo. Nobody would talk about a dip if it just sucked across the board under 5k rpm.

Insane amounts? I'm not trying to be mean, but what are you comparing it to?

The only other 4cyl I've ever had was my 2012 Mazda 3 and it had about the same amount at 3,500 according to the google search I just did. Of course, google's burned me before, lol.

[accel]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

That's not unique to this car though, S2000, RX-7, Cayman, Celica, every 2-stroke bike worth mentioning, etc.

I had 4 cyl Honda Accord coupe MT 2001 that had this dip. It was one of the reasons why I sold it soon. I was revving the engine to redline and was getting right before the dip on the next gear... so I could not avoid going through it most of the gears. That wasn't high revving performance VTEC engine.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by Da Brz

Insane amounts? I'm not trying to be mean, but what are you comparing it to?

The only other 4cyl I've ever had was my 2012 Mazda 3 and it had about the same amount at 3,500 according to the google search I just did. Of course, google's burned me before, lol.

..but keep in mind differences like how high the redline is, what percentage of the total available torque comes on at those low revvs, etc...i wholly agree that part of the reason the torque dip is more noticeable with the fa20 is largely due to how much torque you get quite early, compared to other 4 bangers ofc...personally the fa20 feels better than what i experienced with the 4 bangers in the 240sx and celica. whether it feels better than honda's best 4 na bangers is up for debate

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Da Brz

Insane amounts? I'm not trying to be mean, but what are you comparing it to?

The only other 4cyl I've ever had was my 2012 Mazda 3 and it had about the same amount at 3,500 according to the google search I just did. Of course, google's burned me before, lol.

Mazda typically tunes for mid-range torque over peak power on their piston engines, the notable exception being the NA/NB Miata. In my experience Mazda's engines, like many mass market 4 bangers fall off hard after about 5k rpm, I had a KA24E in my pickup, same thing in the early USDM 240sx and it falls into a similar category with good midrange torque and flat on it's face at the high end. Meanwhile, the F20C, 4AGE, Wankels, and Porsche's top of the line engines don't really start pulling hard until AFTER 5k rpm. That bit was missing from my post, that I'm speaking relative to engines designed to be high revving.

IMO the FA20 falls squarely in the category in that it's designed to be rather gutless below 5k rpm, but deceivingly it makes nearly peak torque at 3.2k. You can drive around just fine under 3.5k rpm while that could be downright painful on some engines (none in recent memory).

None of these cars make near what their peak torque is below 5k rpm, but the 86 does. I don't mean to post these in reference to numbers, but that notably peak torque is over 5k rpm in almost all of these charts and there's nothing close to it down at 3k where the 86 makes a bunch of torque.

S2000





4AGE



Porsche 997 GT3




Wankels have a flatter torque curve but the power is undeniably locked away above 6k.





If you took an 86's dyno and chopped off the part below 4k it would look just like the rest of these, yet the fact that these cars have LESS low end torque than the 86 (compared to their peak) never gets brought up.

It's all frame of reference, yeah you're right, your Mazda 3 probably feels a lot better pulling from 2k up to 5k, but start at 5k and go up to redline and the 86 is in a different league than most 4-bangers. That's what it was designed for, that's why people got excited about this car, Matt Farah reviewed two RX-7's, one with an LS swap and one with a built up rotary, it's "You GET to rev it out" vs. "You HAVE to rev it out"

Many people feel strongly about one over the other, most don't notice.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by accel

I had 4 cyl Honda Accord coupe MT 2001 that had this dip. It was one of the reasons why I sold it soon. I was revving the engine to redline and was getting right before the dip on the next gear... so I could not avoid going through it most of the gears. That wasn't high revving performance VTEC engine.

lol! were you expecting a touge machine with a 4 cyl accord?

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by HKz

it is noticeable especially if you floor it from a stop but with how smooth the torque converter is, along with the relatively quick shifts, i always felt the torque dip was less noticeable than with a MT..

It's quite possible. It's been a while since I've driven a MT. I need to get to the dealership and try a 17.

Well, I always drive this car hard when out and about. Not dangerous just hard. For the first time ever I drove it like a normal car. Like my SUV just casually driving around. I could feel no torque dip anywhere when accelerating.

It doesn't show up until you really push the car hard. Who knew?