New '86 owner

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Maybe so.

I think you're underselling how free flowing the factory exhaust is, nobody is seeing better than single digit gains from catback exhausts which is almost in the noise of being totally insignificant.

With modest forced induction the bottleneck is not the pipe from the catalytic converter rearward. And there seems to be another 10-20 horsepower locked away in the emissions compliant tunes. Pushing big boost, sure, but not on the emissions legal setups.

Will those numbers have OP happy, who knows, numbers are just numbers, putting your foot down doesn't display a dyno chart on the gauges to fulfill your ego.

Oh wait...

Edit: I suppose you may also mean that those numbers aren't achievable with the factory catalytic converter in place and that a header is necessary, again, there are dynos out there around what the OP wants, ~240whp with factory emissions components in place.

Ya it wasn't cat back I was talking about but the stock header. If the stock header is fine then there are several 1,000 people that threw their money away. I remain dubious and hold my ground that the best way to get power from any FI is to improve the flow with a header/exhaust. It can easily be done and still maintain a quiet car. Just slapping a SC on and calling it a day is fine I suppose (I still can not believe those gains are obtained that easily) but most certainly not the best by a long shot.
Been wrong before though.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Ya it wasn't cat back I was talking about but the stock header. If the stock header is fine then there are several 1,000 people that threw their money away. I remain dubious and hold my ground that the best way to get power from any FI is to improve the flow with a header/exhaust. It can easily be done and still maintain a quiet car. Just slapping a SC on and calling it a day is fine I suppose (I still can not believe those gains are obtained that easily) but most certainly not the best by a long shot.
Been wrong before though.

Take note ....... take note ....... everyone take note ........

Off to ma nap time ......


humfrz

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Take note ....... take note ....... everyone take note ........

Off to ma nap time ......


humfrz

Well let's see here. There was the time I said the pre 17 exhaust would bolt right on the 17s (it doesn't), the time I told the guy with the MT that the noise he heard was his vacuum pump (there is none), I predicted there would be no 17 special edition 86 (there is) and the many times I used to instead of too.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I remain dubious and hold my ground that the best way to get power from any FI is to improve the flow with a header/exhaust. It can easily be done and still maintain a quiet car. Just slapping a SC on and calling it a day is fine I suppose (I still can not believe those gains are obtained that easily) but most certainly not the best by a long shot.
Been wrong before though.

I don't think you're wrong, like I said, I just think you're underselling the OE exhaust.

Jackson Racing also advertises +50% horsepower gains, again 70-80 whp up from 160-170whp stock.
http://jacksonracing.com/jackson-rac...stem-released/

Kraftwerks advertises even better gains at ~270whp and 60% increase:
https://kraftwerksusa.com/150-12-3301.html


How real are those numbers? I don't know, but ballpark 40%-50% increase with stock header/exhaust and emissions compliance seems like a viable estimate backed up by the dyno charts I've managed to see posted up here. Some come in lower, some come in higher, especially on a custom tune.

[funwheeldrive]

It's probably been mentioned already, but another benefit to aftermarket exhaust systems is that most of them weigh less than OEM. More power and less weight is a good combo.

[martin05rc]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

If you know then why ask?

Nice to know this board has some attitude! Yeah!

OK. So. I is one of them aerospace engineers who designs and builds rocket things that go to the Space Station 'n stuff. Which means I know me my physics real good. What I don't now me real good is what products are out there and how well they do on this here automobile. And that's why I asketh thy them questions.

All kidding aside. I understand the physics of these systems pretty well. This doesn't mean I am qualified to pick the best products because that tends to be based far more on use, history and experience.

I'll try to address some of the other questions/comments here so it all goes in one place.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

From the original post and the concern about CELs being "nightmares" I figured the warranty may be something he would like. Apparently I was wrong.

Not wrong. I think warranty is always a good thing. Just need to look at the fine print, that's all. Is it a deciding factor? Not sure yet.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I think Edelbrock is a good suggestion, but it's not the most trouble free kit and the warranty they offer is of limited usefulness for most people that wait until after they're out of factory warranty or do their own work.

Well, I'll probably start modding after the first service at about 3,000 miles. So, yeah, some of the warranty will be voided. The only way around that is if I keep all the parts and swap in the standard intake system before taking it in for any service. That would be a pain.

I am going to talk to the mechanics at the local Toyota dealer where I bought it and see what they have to say. I know a lot of mechanics and most of them like stuff like this. So it depends on where they might have to set limits based on Toyota guidelines.

My guess is that the smartest strategy might very well be to hire one of them to help with the installation over a weekend. I can install the thing myself, but throwing some money at one of the local Toyota factory guys might ensure a wonderful relationship going forward.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Original post indicates a desire for an increase of 80hp or 50% and that is NOT going to happen with any type of FI and stock exhaust.

I called Cosworth. They said to expect 80 HP gain with just the supercharger
and no changes to the exhaust system.

Remember, I'm starting with 205 HP, so it's a little less than a 40% gain in power. It is actually possible to achieve somewhere around 30% gains on naturally aspirated engines by resorting to carefully engineered resonant mode intake systems. This is very difficult to achieve and is mostly a laboratory experiment. My point is that achieving a 40% gain with a supercharger shouldn't be surprising.

Originally Posted by humfrz

Maybe so, but what I was looking for was this comparison, quantified

From what I've seen looking around the 'net there are lots of claims but few people take the time and spend the money to take measurements on a dyno. Which means that some of what on reads needs to be categorized as "to be verified". And this is fine, not everyone will be interested in taking such an approach.

In my case I will dyno test before and after the supercharger installation. I might even buy an exhaust system and test after installing it (also measuring noise levels on all tests).

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Will those numbers have OP happy, who knows, numbers are just numbers, putting your foot down doesn't display a dyno chart on the gauges to fulfill your ego.

No ego here. I own faster cars (0 to 60 in 3.9 s; 425 HP from the factory) than this GT86. Yet the GT86 is actually more fun to drive and, of course, I'd have no issue with the idea of taking it to the track.

Just looking to have some fun with a car that is already a lot of fun without touching a thing. Which means that almost anything will be an improvement.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by martin05rc

Yet the GT86 is actually more fun to drive and, of course, I'd have no issue with the idea of taking it to the track.

Just looking to have some fun with a car that is already a lot of fun without touching a thing. Which means that almost anything will be an improvement.

In the fun department not much improves on the factory setup, most changes make the car faster and less fun imo.

I got one of those fancy degrees too, it's amazing who they let launch stuff into space.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by martin05rc

Nice to know this board has some attitude! Yeah!

OK. So. I is one of them aerospace engineers who designs and builds rocket things that go to the Space Station 'n stuff. Which means I know me my physics real good. What I don't now me real good is what products are out there and how well they do on this here automobile. And that's why I asketh thy them questions.

All kidding aside. I understand the physics of these systems pretty well. This doesn't mean I am qualified to pick the best products because that tends to be based far more on use, history and experience.

I'll try to address some of the other questions/comments here so it all goes in one place.



Not wrong. I think warranty is always a good thing. Just need to look at the fine print, that's all. Is it a deciding factor? Not sure yet.



Well, I'll probably start modding after the first service at about 3,000 miles. So, yeah, some of the warranty will be voided. The only way around that is if I keep all the parts and swap in the standard intake system before taking it in for any service. That would be a pain.

I am going to talk to the mechanics at the local Toyota dealer where I bought it and see what they have to say. I know a lot of mechanics and most of them like stuff like this. So it depends on where they might have to set limits based on Toyota guidelines.

My guess is that the smartest strategy might very well be to hire one of them to help with the installation over a weekend. I can install the thing myself, but throwing some money at one of the local Toyota factory guys might ensure a wonderful relationship going forward.



I called Cosworth. They said to expect 80 HP gain with just the supercharger
and no changes to the exhaust system.

Remember, I'm starting with 205 HP, so it's a little less than a 40% gain in power. It is actually possible to achieve somewhere around 30% gains on naturally aspirated engines by resorting to carefully engineered resonant mode intake systems. This is very difficult to achieve and is mostly a laboratory experiment. My point is that achieving a 40% gain with a supercharger shouldn't be surprising.



From what I've seen looking around the 'net there are lots of claims but few people take the time and spend the money to take measurements on a dyno. Which means that some of what on reads needs to be categorized as "to be verified". And this is fine, not everyone will be interested in taking such an approach.

In my case I will dyno test before and after the supercharger installation. I might even buy an exhaust system and test after installing it (also measuring noise levels on all tests).



No ego here. I own faster cars (0 to 60 in 3.9 s; 425 HP from the factory) than this GT86. Yet the GT86 is actually more fun to drive and, of course, I'd have no issue with the idea of taking it to the track.

Just looking to have some fun with a car that is already a lot of fun without touching a thing. Which means that almost anything will be an improvement.

Oh great another rocket scientist on here. One wasn't enough?

LOL My only objection is when people ask for advice and then throw up every argument they can when it is given. It comes across as just trying to support the plan they already have. Makes no difference to me what you do but you did ask.
You are not starting with 205hp. They are basing the number on WHP so you are starting with about 172 or so.
If you have faster cars why worry about HP on this one? Is it really "improving" anything?

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Well let's see here. There was the time I said the pre 17 exhaust would bolt right on the 17s (it doesn't), the time I told the guy with the MT that the noise he heard was his vacuum pump (there is none), I predicted there would be no 17 special edition 86 (there is) and the many times I used to instead of too.

I reckon mrs Tcoat would tell a different story ..........


humfrz

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by martin05rc

..............
OK. So. I is one of them aerospace engineers who designs and builds rocket things that go to the Space Station 'n stuff. Which means I know me my physics real good. What I don't now me real good is what products are out there and how well they do on this here automobile. And that's why I asketh thy them questions............

You musta have gone to elementary school in southern Ohio and spent a lot of your childhood time in West Virginia ....... like I did ......


humfrz

[martin05rc]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Oh great another rocket scientist on here. One wasn't enough?

Being a rocket scientist is, in my humble opinion, highly overrated. I work with quite a few of them and you would not believe the shit they come up with. Of course, most of it is because they are half my age and never built a damn thing in their lives. I have days when I'd rather have a crew of thirty guys who rebuilt a few engines and tranny's in their garage than folks with Master's degrees from MIT.

Anyhow, that's another story.

LOL My only objection is when people ask for advice and then throw up every argument they can when it is given. It comes across as just trying to support the plan they already have.

Yet, at some level this makes sense, right? There are at least two kinds of people who ask questions on forums.

The first does virtually no research at all, finds a forum, signs up and asks questions.

The other kind devotes a great deal of time doing research and reading through a bunch of threads before asking questions.

And so, you'd expect someone that fits the second type to, yes, come in with preconceived notions and sometimes even defend them. What's important is that they be open-minded enough to accept input and consider alternative ideas.

For example, I did not consider emissions during my research prior to posting here. I am now looking at that. If I can add a little fun factor and remain within emissions regulations, why no?

If you have faster cars why worry about HP on this one? Is it really "improving" anything?

Because as far as I am concerned, an M3 is not as much fun to drive as a GT86. I hope people here will understand this. The damn thing weighs in at nearly 3,600 lbs. OK, so you can go from zero to 60 real quick. And then what? I've done that plenty over the years with the fire-breathing monsters I've owned. It's get old real quick.

Fun has to do with how a car drives and feels and the GT86 is far nicer, as far as I am concerned, than an M3 at over twice the money. My wife doesn't understand why, when given a choice, I almost never drive the M3.

Disclaimer: I've never tracked the M3. If I did I might very well change my opinion. Yet, I would not do that. The damn thing is too expensive!

Is it really "improving" anything?

I think flattening the torque curve while adding more torque and some horsepower would round out the GT86 nicely. Nearly every review I've watched on YouTube for the stock car as well as comparisons to super/turbo-charged setups seem to agree on this one point.

So, yeah, I think it would improve the car. And the good news seems to be that there's no need to go crazy at all.

[martin05rc]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

it's amazing who they let launch stuff into space.

Oh, brother, ain't that the truth. Don't get me started.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by martin05rc

Being a rocket scientist is, in my humble opinion, highly overrated. I work with quite a few of them and you would not believe the shit they come up with. Of course, most of it is because they are half my age and never built a damn thing in their lives. I have days when I'd rather have a crew of thirty guys who rebuilt a few engines and tranny's in their garage than folks with Master's degrees from MIT.

Anyhow, that's another story.



Yet, at some level this makes sense, right? There are at least two kinds of people who ask questions on forums.

The first does virtually no research at all, finds a forum, signs up and asks questions.

The other kind devotes a great deal of time doing research and reading through a bunch of threads before asking questions.

And so, you'd expect someone that fits the second type to, yes, come in with preconceived notions and sometimes even defend them. What's important is that they be open-minded enough to accept input and consider alternative ideas.

For example, I did not consider emissions during my research prior to posting here. I am now looking at that. If I can add a little fun factor and remain within emissions regulations, why no?



Because as far as I am concerned, an M3 is not as much fun to drive as a GT86. I hope people here will understand this. The damn thing weighs in at nearly 3,600 lbs. OK, so you can go from zero to 60 real quick. And then what? I've done that plenty over the years with the fire-breathing monsters I've owned. It's get old real quick.

Fun has to do with how a car drives and feels and the GT86 is far nicer, as far as I am concerned, than an M3 at over twice the money. My wife doesn't understand why, when given a choice, I almost never drive the M3.

Disclaimer: I've never tracked the M3. If I did I might very well change my opinion. Yet, I would not do that. The damn thing is too expensive!



I think flattening the torque curve while adding more torque and some horsepower would round out the GT86 nicely. Nearly every review I've watched on YouTube for the stock car as well as comparisons to super/turbo-charged setups seem to agree on this one point.

So, yeah, I think it would improve the car. And the good news seems to be that there's no need to go crazy at all.

Well you did break the speed record in throwing out the good old "I am an engineer" response since normally that doesn't happen for at least 20 posts.

Our initial responses were based upon the limited info in your first post and the level of prior research was not evident. For example you stated that the CELs would be a "nightmare" with a header when the reality is they are little more than a nuisance. This statement did not make it appear that you had done much more than a basic look at the info.

I do not base my opinions of cars on reviews or YouTube but upon the actual driving. If you feel there is a need for more power from your driving experiences in it then add power but because a bunch of other guys agree it is the answer does not make it so. Yes, it will change the car. If it is improved is a different question. There are guys here that have "improved" the car so much that it is no longer even remotely what it started out as.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by martin05rc

Oh, brother, ain't that the truth. Don't get me started.

I'm in the industry, you're in LA, I bet you see three times the bullshit I see.