Twins future question

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I would like to see the Subaru document that states exactly what their annual goals were/are. Companies rarely provide such information unless you sit on the board of directors or are a major shareholder. Publicizing your business plans is not generally a good way to run a business and Toyota/Subaru are pretty well known for knowing how to run a business.

Geez, guess I caught you in a bad mood. Don't you trust me?



http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4283

It was a Yahoo Japan article as the source, they typically pull from Associated Press/Reuters and local news sources, it's as legit as anything reputable not direct from a Subaru/Toyota press release as far as I'm concerned. Shame it got pulled down, but I recall doing google translate on the article myself when I stumbled across it many years ago.

And I said as much at the end of my post that it was no 100% indicator of market plans.

Yahoo got a bad rap on news delivery, many people lumped it in with more biased sources while they pulled directly from legit journalists.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Th3rdSun

I disagree with that. I think there are many more people that passed on the car because it's underpowered than any other factor. All you have to do is read almost any comment section of any Youtube review of this car to confirm that.

Whether it be NA or FI,if this car had more power it would almost undoubtedly sell better,assuming that the price is not much higher to scare people off.

Yes because the vocal commenters on YouTube is a truly reliable data set. Many that like to ramble on about more power would not buy it anyway. And how much is enough? 250? 300? 600? It doesn't matter what it has a bunch of bench racers will sit back and say it isn't enough. Probably 90% of those people making comments on YouTube have never even driven one and don't have a fucking clue what they are talking about. There would be just as many pass on it if it had more as there are because it doesn't. MOST of these cars are not sold to people on this forum or making YouTube video comments screaming that they can't keep up with traffic. They are sold to people happily driving them back and forth to work everyday.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Geez, guess I caught you in a bad mood. Don't you trust me?



http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4283

It was a Yahoo Japan article as the source, they typically pull from Associated Press/Reuters and local news sources, it's as legit as anything reputable not direct from a Subaru/Toyota press release as far as I'm concerned. Shame it got pulled down, but I recall doing google translate on the article myself when I stumbled across it many years ago.

And I said as much at the end of my post that it was no 100% indicator of market plans.

Yahoo got a bad rap on news delivery, many people lumped it in with more biased sources while they pulled directly from legit journalists.

Bad mood? Because I gave a concise counter point? Do I need to put little smiley faces everyplace so people don't always think I am angry? Is there a way to write emotions (or lake there of)?

So now it s a blog taking a quote from a forum taking it from a news site. Every play the game telephone? Even if accurate a prepared speech written by a marketing team does not mean that was the plan. We will never know the actual plan since anybody that really knows it will not release it and anything that is released may not be exactly accurate.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Th3rdSun

All you have to do is read almost any comment section of any Youtube review of this car to confirm that.

Whether it be NA or FI,if this car had more power it would almost undoubtedly sell better,assuming that the price is not much higher to scare people off.

lmao

If comments sections were any bearing on reality my mother would be a lot more tired and have a lot more money.

Tcoat will jump in, but higher horsepower trims ALWAYS sell less than the lower horsepower trims. You're living in a bubble, >90% of these cars are bought by people who don't know anything about them, can't tell you what a torque dip is, what compression ratio is in this thing, I'd bet more than a few think their BRZ is AWD.

Toyobaru pays people a lot of money to figure out if this car would have been profitable with more horsepower, they decided it wouldn't be. Thinking you know better because of a few internet comments is akin to watching a SpaceX launch and saying you can advise rocket scientists.

Edit: For instance, people wanted a lighter Miata, critisized Mazda for the NC getting heavy. Boom they made a lighter Miata, how's it selling? Worse than the NC. Internet comments have no bearing on reality, the average person cannot afford a $25k new car, let alone a $35k hopped up TRD/STI/GT/SS/R version of it.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Even if accurate a prepared speech written by a marketing team does not mean that was the plan. We will never know the actual plan since anybody that really knows it will not release it and anything that is released may not be exactly accurate.

Sheesh, should have realized you were in a "this whole topic is stupid" mood. I don't think you're wrong.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

lmao

If comments sections were any bearing on reality my mother would be a lot more tired and have a lot more money.

Tcoat will jump in, but higher horsepower trims ALWAYS sell less than the lower horsepower trims. You're living in a bubble, >90% of these cars are bought by people who don't know anything about them, can't tell you what a torque dip is, what compression ratio is in this thing, I'd bet more than a few think their BRZ is AWD.

Toyobaru pays people a lot of money to figure out if this car would have been profitable with more horsepower, they decided it wouldn't be. Thinking you know better because of a few internet comments is akin to watching a SpaceX launch and saying you can advise rocket scientists.

Had a tech driving a BRZ show up at our plant back before Christmas. He not only thought it had AWD he didn't have a clue that Scion had a version of the same car. He was floored to find out that it wasn't a Subaru only model and very upset that he didn't have AWD (although I am not convinced he totally believed me on that). That is the majority of the owners!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Sheesh, should have realized you were in a "this whole topic is stupid" mood. I don't think you're wrong.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Spuds

As far as technical development goes, I would not expect anything major. They​ nailed the chassis right out of the gate, and it looks pretty good for the price range. Only thing that would sell better would be to add power. Subaru has the go fast(er) know-how, but my guess is Toyota holds the cards contractually/money-wise. Since the two brands are still competitors with separate leadership, I don't see Subaru giving Toyota a turbo, nor Toyota paying Subaru to develop a better/bigger engine for Subaru's lineup.

That being said, contracts can have an expiration date...

Who said that Subaru and Toyota didn't add power? The engine they created is based on the FB20 motor. They added +50 hp on the original engine. I have both engines (FB20 & FA20) and I can see the difference everyday. The only other thing they could do was to use the FB25 motor and not the FB20, but there were many factors to choose the smaller displacement. The turbo was out of question and in fact it would change dramatically the balance of the car. A factory is not like a tuner, they would have to pass some very strict collision tests and get all the necessary certificates. Do you think they could do better?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Who said that Subaru and Toyota didn't add power? The engine they created was based on the FB20 motor. They added +50 hp on the original engine. I have both engines (FB20 & FA20) and I can see the difference everyday. The only other thing they could do was to use the FB25 motor and not the FB20, but there were many factors to choose the smaller displacement. The turbo was out of question and in fact it would change dramatically the balance of the car. A factory is not like a tuner, they would have to pass some very strict collision tests and get all the necessary certificates. Do you think they could do better?

This is a great point that I have never even thought of before!

[Th3rdSun]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

lmao

If comments sections were any bearing on reality my mother would be a lot more tired and have a lot more money.

Tcoat will jump in, but higher horsepower trims ALWAYS sell less than the lower horsepower trims. You're living in a bubble, >90% of these cars are bought by people who don't know anything about them, can't tell you what a torque dip is, what compression ratio is in this thing, I'd bet more than a few think their BRZ is AWD.

Toyobaru pays people a lot of money to figure out if this car would have been profitable with more horsepower, they decided it wouldn't be. Thinking you know better because of a few internet comments is akin to watching a SpaceX launch and saying you can advise rocket scientists.

Fair enough I guess,but then there in lies the question.Forgive me if this has been answered before,but why aren't these cars selling better? Mind you,I'm not talking about people that need a back seat,more trunk space, or something like that,but I talking about the "enthusiasts" that went with a Z,Miata,Genesis Coupe,Mustang,what have you,instead of a Twins.Every review,will tell you that the balance and handling is almost second to none for cars that are comparable,and while subjective,I've' never heard any complaints about how it looks. I've gotten more complements on my car from total strangers that any other car that I've owned.So if it's not the lack of power,then please,tell me what could it be.

I can tell you from my experience that while I do like my FR-S,I don't plan on keeping it.If it's to my liking stylewise,I'm more than likely trading this thing in for the next gen STI,and the two main reasons are power and AWD.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Th3rdSun

Fair enough I guess,but then there in lies the question.Forgive me if this has been answered before,but why aren't these cars selling better? Mind you,I'm not talking about people that need a back seat,more trunk space, or something like that,but I talking about the "enthusiasts" that went with a Z,Miata,Genesis Coupe,Mustang,what have you,instead of a Twins.Every review,will tell you that the balance and handling is almost second to none for cars that are comparable,and while subjective,I've' never heard any complaints about how it looks. I've gotten more complements on my car from total strangers that any other car that I've owned.So if it's not the lack of power,then please,tell me what could it be.

I can tell you from my experience that while I do like my FR-S,I don't plan on keeping it.If it's to my liking stylewise,I'm more than likely trading this thing in for the next gen STI,and the two main reasons are power and AWD.

We go back to my first point. Who says it isn't selling well? No it doesn't sell in huge numbers. They are not trying to sell it in huge numbers. The power level has nothing to do with how well its sells. Of course people go with those other cars but to say it is just because of power is narrow minded. Did you truly expect every single "enthusiast" to want a Twin instead of those others? Different people want different things from the car and they have loads of choices. If they want more power with the same sort of handling there are other options as well. There are Jags, Porsches, Lexus, Acura's, BMWs, Corvettes galore that you can run out and buy right this second that match or exceed the handling of the Twins with twice the power. If that is what people want so bad then that is what they should buy.

[darthpnoy1984]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Who said that Subaru and Toyota didn't add power? The engine they created is based on the FB20 motor. They added +50 hp on the original engine. I have both engines (FB20 & FA20) and I can see the difference everyday. The only other thing they could do was to use the FB25 motor and not the FB20, but there were many factors to choose the smaller displacement. The turbo was out of question and in fact it would change dramatically the balance of the car. A factory is not like a tuner, they would have to pass some very strict collision tests and get all the necessary certificates. Do you think they could do better?

Great point I think this is one of many aspect folks don't understand even fuel economy as well is another factor to note the original AE86 barely made a 112 HP and had slow 0-60 as well yet I never heard magazines complain about it back in 1985.


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[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Th3rdSun

I talking about the "enthusiasts" that went with a Z,Miata,Genesis Coupe,Mustang,what have you,instead of a Twins.

The 86 is handily outselling all of those cars except the Mustang. If you go back over the past 25 years I can only come up with two cars that were handling focused, rwd, and affordable that outsold the 86, the NA/NB Miata and the 350z.

The fact is that lightweight well handling coupes are a niche market, the 86 does very well when you look at it's actual competitors, it's already outsold the NC Miata, S2000, and RX-8 which all had many more years on the market, and more horsepower (except the NC).

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There are Jags, Porsches, Lexus, Acura's, BMWs, Corvettes galore that you can run out and buy right this second that match or exceed the handling of the Twins with twice the power. If that is what people want so bad then that is what they should buy.

If we are talking buying new, the FRS doesn't really compete with any of these...

I should have included the word potentially in my sell better sentence . Within my circle of folks, I know a few people who would not even consider the 86 due to low torque numbers, but that's just a small subset of the population. Same price point with 250+/200+ at the crank might have gotten it some consideration from them at least.