How to screw up your cars handling and ride - step by step!

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by Calvin27

Haven't trawled through 10+ pages, but I find the tyre thing interesting.

So I run a stock setup (headers and tune only) and running re003. I'm keen to move up to ad08r, rs3 or z221 (semi slick) but now this thread has made me do a double take. Is this too much tyre, in particular the z221?

What's the application going to be? Autocross (might be called autotest or slalom where you live) or road course? How you select a tire is slightly different for each, although the basic principle is to pick the grippiest compound possible, then upgrade the suspension to the limit of the rules to maximize how the tire works.

I had a ton of fun with the car on DOT slicks from Goodyear with just a front sway bar upgrade, but the car will have some foibles you'll have to work around (i.e. what Andrew said about leaving a lot on the table). So it also depends if you're just looking to play with cars or if you're building something that will compete in a specific class somewhere.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by Calvin27

Haven't trawled through 10+ pages, but I find the tyre thing interesting.

So I run a stock setup (headers and tune only) and running re003. I'm keen to move up to ad08r, rs3 or z221 (semi slick) but now this thread has made me do a double take. Is this too much tyre, in particular the z221?

As someone who ran Nittos NT01 and Maxxis RC-1 (both entry level r-compounds, slightly more grip than the tires you mentioned) and stock suspension I can tell you that Racecomp Engineering comment is spot on. It is faster, but you'll leave time on the table. If I had to choose because of budget (or class limitations, which was my case) between suspension mod or sticky tire, I'd go for sticky tire any day. In my same class there was someone running MPSS with modified suspension, I beat him, and I actually think he's the faster driver (so my car had an edge for sure). Several other twins running modified suspension AND Nittos were 1 to 2 seconds faster than me on a 1min racetrack.

Times aside, the feeling of the car is different, suddenly it feels like your car has softer springs and it rolls more during corners. It took me 2 days out at the track to understand what was happening and start actually taking advantage of the setup.

[Calvin27]

Thanks for the replies guys. The mx5 folks rekon the difference between my current tyre and ad08r is worth about 3-4 seconds on a 1.50 track (very tight).

I'll be using the car for a bunch of stuff but the purpose of the tyres is for time attack. I'll keep the less grippy stuff for autoX and wet weather. The car gets driven on weekends sometimes but no big deal. i don't compete, so there is no real class, just performance. Suspension is maybe 6-12 months down the line. The main reason for tyres is because I rekon I am pretty close to the limit on these now.

[Esseff]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

I remember the first time I drove a BRZ a little before it hit the streets and thinking....damn....Subaru/Toyota got serious.

Anyway, this is a list of things that I see owners doing to their 86's...often with good intentions and parts bought hoping to improve things, but they end up chasing more parts to get things right. All of these on their own are detrimental, but can sometimes be "worked around" to some extent. Unfortunately many cars check off multiple boxes and sometimes all of them...resulting in a car that is a big step back from the factory.

I'll skip "stanced" cars (slammed, stretched tires, massive camber)...I don't think anyone does that expecting not to sacrifice function for what they think looks good. Different strokes.

These are some of the common things I see:

1. Staggered wheels/tires

It's a good look and definitely makes your car look like it has a lot of power. Unfortunately our cars don't have a lot of power.

It's also a great way to build in some extra understeer that's difficult to tune out. Staggered wheels are common on cars with a lot of power but are not necessary MOST the time here.

This one CAN be worked around but there's just no need to complicate things.


2. Big ass heavy wheels

Even if you got a great deal on a buddy's 18x9.5 wheels, it may not be a great idea to use 27 lb steamrollers at each corner. Most of us don't need that much tire either. Keep it light and it'll feel like your dampers are much more capable. You'll stop and go faster too.


3. Big drop on lowering springs

If it looks a racecar then it must handle like one, right? Unfortunately, it doesn't exactly work like that. A little drop can improve things with proper spring rates, but past an inch or more and you start making big compromises and riding the bumpstops before you even hit a bump. It's a sure way to downgrade your handling. Aftermarket shocks may help in some ways, but don't solve the travel problem.


4. Big drop on coilovers

With some coilovers you don't need to worry about bump travel as much, but geometry is still a concern when lowering 2 inches. A big change in roll center height and changes in the dynamic alignment can be felt from the driver's seat...and it feels sloppy.

I know what you're thinking. There are a ton of cars on here that hit the track and handle well with a lowered ride height. If you must have that really low center of gravity than you must use very firm spring rates (and then quality dampers to match) or use geometry correction parts. That's what the fast guys and girls at the track are doing....not slamming their crappy coilovers to the ground and expecting all to be well.


5. Poor or mismatched dampers

Whether it's running very stiff springs on the stock shocks (or riding the firm bumpstops), or turning your adjustable dampers up to full stiff, damping that's not matched to the springs won't feel good. Underdamped will feel bouncy, floaty, and generally crappy in transitions. Overdamped will feel harsh, crashy, and might hurt your back. None of this is good for ride quality or handling.

Sometimes an adjustable won't have a "good" setting because the quality of the valving is just plain bad. This is more noticeable with firmer spring rates.


6. Alignment

Anything less than -1 degrees camber up front is a recipe for understeer. I still see people trying to get their camber "back to 0" after lowering. Don't do this! Tire wear isn't really a concern until you get to -2, so don't be shy...add a little camber and enjoy. Most enthusiasts will get BETTER and more even tire wear anyway. Toe is the tire killer.


7. Tire choice

Really stiff springs with all season or OEM tires can reduce grip as you'll be quickly/easily overloading the tire. Match your spring rates to your tire choice.

Running sticky tires on soft OEM springs is a problem too, but you will still gain grip from the tire. It'll just feel sloppy and move around a lot.


--------------------------------------------------

Follow all of these steps and you can turn your well tuned factory BRZ/FRS into a sloppy, numb, slow reacting, pig of a car. Please don't though, it's too much fun when set up right.


- Andy

Sorry, but I'm going to, have to ask the moderators to remove this post...
far too intelligent for this forum!

[nextcar]

Originally Posted by Esseff

Sorry, but I'm going to, have to ask the moderators to remove this post...
far too intelligent for any forum!

FIFY

[Gent]

Hi gang,

I bought an 86 in November, and I'm putting in some Tein Flex-A coilovers next week. This thread has been a great read.

I'm not going to lower it more than about 20 mm. My summer wheels are some 18x7.5 +42 Rays G-Games 77W Vaio with 225/35 tires. I'm going to run about -1.2 and -1 camber f/r. I plan on running 6 clicks from full soft in the front and 4 from full soft in the rear.

I'd love to hear feedback and suggestions. I do some aggressive mountain driving, my roads are good, and it's my daily driver. Glad to be here!

[churchx]

I'd probably up camber a bit to -2 to -2.5 front and -1.5 to -2 rear. And worth getting rear LCA too. I guess Flex's camberplates should be enough to not need camberbolts. Zero toe front, slight toe-in rear.

[Gent]

Thanks, I'll kick up the negative camber a bit. I didn't think I'd need LCA with such a small drop using the Flex-A coilovers. How will they improve things?

[driggity]

Originally Posted by Gent

Thanks, I'll kick up the negative camber a bit. I didn't think I'd need LCA with such a small drop using the Flex-A coilovers. How will they improve things?

Without the rear LCAs you won't be able to adjust camber in the rear (other than just loosening and wiggling things) and you may end up with a fair amount of imbalance from side to side. Also my guess is that you'll be much closer to -2 than -1 in the rear without adding rear LCAs.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by Esseff

Sorry, but I'm going to, have to ask the moderators to remove this post...
far too intelligent for this forum!

Yeah, I was gonna say I'm surprised a bunch of ignorant cretins and stance fanboys haven't come in here to cry about this thread.

[JSube]

Originally Posted by Frisco

Wow, this is a great thread!

I'm new to performance autos, but have tons of experience with motorcycles. Most bikes are transformed by suspension upgrades, so I was willing to consider modding my car for track days and sporty street riding.

Then I discovered Subaru's performance package option on the new BRZ.....

This car handles and stops so well, I'm just going to drive it. We will see how it goes, but a couple little comfort/cosmetic mods an I think I'll be good. I'll take the money I save up to Sonoma Raceway!


CJ

Congrats on your PP car, Frisco, I got mine about a month ago. I'm so impressed with the ride & handling of the car on the street, but this summer will get me to 5-7 track events and my mind may change. First event is a 1-day next Tuesday.
I'm curious what RCE's suspension priority upgrade list would be for a DD that's tracked monthly for half the year. I'm not thinking past anything but front camber plates at the moment. I don't have any experience in BRZs without the Sachs dampers, but they seem pretty nice.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by JSube

Congrats on your PP car, Frisco, I got mine about a month ago. I'm so impressed with the ride & handling of the car on the street, but this summer will get me to 5-7 track events and my mind may change. First event is a 1-day next Tuesday.
I'm curious what RCE's suspension priority upgrade list would be for a DD that's tracked monthly for half the year. I'm not thinking past anything but front camber plates at the moment. I don't have any experience in BRZs without the Sachs dampers, but they seem pretty nice.

Start with a good alignment, brake pads, and brake fluid. Go have fun.

Oh also get an oil cooler.

- Andrew

[JSube]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Start with a good alignment, brake pads, and brake fluid. Go have fun.

Oh also get an oil cooler.

- Andrew

Thanks Andrew, was thinking more of a baseline for suspension, I'm already with you on pads & fluids. Since I like the ride so much my thinking right now is to get camber plates this year and probably nothing else until I know the car well, but I've been to many track wkends in a variety of cars. Sound reasonable?

[cjd]

Originally Posted by JSube

Thanks Andrew, was thinking more of a baseline for suspension, I'm already with you on pads & fluids. Since I like the ride so much my thinking right now is to get camber plates this year and probably nothing else until I know the car well, but I've been to many track wkends in a variety of cars. Sound reasonable?

Like alignment? -3f/-2r camber (may also need rear LCA) minimum, zero toe all around or maybe a little toe in rear to help out seller and track a little more cleanly.

Any more camber would be measured in tenths, dialed in with tire temps...