2015+ WRX/STI Review: Comparison to FRS/BRZ

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by El Guapo

A few questions for you Tyler:

1) Have you tracked you STi yet? If you have, how did it do? I skimmed through this thread and you mentioned that you want to track it so I might have missed it.

2) Did you track your FR-S?

3) If you did track your FR-S, how did both cars do out on the track? I imagine the STi was faster, but how did both cars perform?

4) You mentioned that you wanted something that was track ready from the factory. From what I've read, the twins need better brake fluid, pads, oil, and alignment to be ready for the track. My question is, could you elaborate more on that? Does the STi have less track preparations compared to the twins or what makes you say this?

tl;dr I'd like to know which car you think is the most capable, better, more fun car at the track?

I have yet to track my FR-S, it is something I want to do once the snow is gone. I have no track experience so I might be over thinking this, but I would like AWD for the winter. That said, I'd like to hear what you have to say. Thanks in advance!

No problem. Glad to help.

1. I have not tracked the STI yet. Actually, I'll be doing the first track event with it next Friday (Dec. 11) at Auto Club Speedway here in CA.

2. I tracked the FRS a bunch, BUT I built that car for drifting. Not the standard road course driving like I'll be doing with the STI.

3. The FRS performed very well, even with stock power. My only gripes with it from the beginning were that I wanted more steering angle and a bit more mid range and top end power. Headers, tune, and tie rods easily solved those complaints. I did like 10 days of drifting with that car, a 3,000 miles cross country trip with it within a 2 week period and all sorts of other crazyness with it. After nearly 20k miles, the car NEVER let me down or broke on me.

4. This is where it gets a bit more involved. Quite a few cars can actually be driven on track just fine with nothing more than some better pads and fluid. My FRS saw it's first event 3 weeks after purchasing the car with nothing more than some coilovers and a muffler delete. I hit 1,000 miles on the car during the drive to the event.

The STI is a complete car in the sense that it already comes with a lot of the stuff that you would add to a standard WRX. I don't need a big brake upgrade, because the STI already has large Brembos. I don't need any drivetrain upgrades because of the front/rear, and adjustable center diffs. The transmission is stout and can take abuse. The suspension and chassis are very good and don't really need much of anything. In fact, most of the cheap aftermarket stuff would probably do more harm than good. If I touch suspension at all, it would probably just be springs from RCE or Swift. The engine is fine, desipte all the ignorant remarks about the EJ being crap. I let the car warm up properly, I drive in the right gear, and I check my oil every other fill up. No complaints here. It's a solid platform, but it could use a couple small things to help with reliability and longevity. Something like a catch can/AOS, and some minor bits under the hood to help with engine bay temps.

My STI is 6 months old and the only addition has been Motul brake fluid. We'll see how it does come Friday. I'll have pictures and a review to follow as well. That should answer your question on which I think is the better car for the track, though it's difficult to compare since the type of driving I'm doing with the two cars is apples to oranges.

Realistically, I can't see myself adding anything else aside from brake pads, wheels/tires, an alignment change and an axleback exhaust, but we'll see. I might discover some things after the track. I'm not one for modifying senslessly just to blow money.

I stand by what I said in the beginning. The STI is the best all around car I've owned. It has done everything I've needed it to do so far, all without skipping a beat and while being much more comfortable and practical than the FRS was. However, the FRS is still the most fun car I've owned. It was just practical enough to drive around on a daily basis (not very good for anything long distance) and it was loads of fun on the track, backroads, or whenever the roads got a little wet. 3rd gear clutch kicks at 20mph in the snow going up onramps was also fun

I miss the FRS sometimes, but "NO RAGRETS" with trading it in. Not even one letter.

[El Guapo]

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

No problem. Glad to help.

1. I have not tracked the STI yet. Actually, I'll be doing the first track event with it next Friday (Dec. 11) at Auto Club Speedway here in CA.

2. I tracked the FRS a bunch, BUT I built that car for drifting. Not the standard road course driving like I'll be doing with the STI.

3. The FRS performed very well, even with stock power. My only gripes with it from the beginning were that I wanted more steering angle and a bit more mid range and top end power. Headers, tune, and tie rods easily solved those complaints. I did like 10 days of drifting with that car, a 3,000 miles cross country trip with it within a 2 week period and all sorts of other crazyness with it. After nearly 20k miles, the car NEVER let me down or broke on me.

4. This is where it gets a bit more involved. Quite a few cars can actually be driven on track just fine with nothing more than some better pads and fluid. My FRS saw it's first event 3 weeks after purchasing the car with nothing more than some coilovers and a muffler delete. I hit 1,000 miles on the car during the drive to the event.

The STI is a complete car in the sense that it already comes with a lot of the stuff that you would add to a standard WRX. I don't need a big brake upgrade, because the STI already has large Brembos. I don't need any drivetrain upgrades because of the front/rear, and adjustable center diffs. The transmission is stout and can take abuse. The suspension and chassis are very good and don't really need much of anything. In fact, most of the cheap aftermarket stuff would probably do more harm than good. If I touch suspension at all, it would probably just be springs from RCE or Swift. The engine is fine, desipte all the ignorant remarks about the EJ being crap. I let the car warm up properly, I drive in the right gear, and I check my oil every other fill up. No complaints here. It's a solid platform, but it could use a couple small things to help with reliability and longevity. Something like a catch can/AOS, and some minor bits under the hood to help with engine bay temps.

My STI is 6 months old and the only addition has been Motul brake fluid. We'll see how it does come Friday. I'll have pictures and a review to follow as well. That should answer your question on which I think is the better car for the track, though it's difficult to compare since the type of driving I'm doing with the two cars is apples to oranges.

Realistically, I can't see myself adding anything else aside from brake pads, wheels/tires, an alignment change and an axleback exhaust, but we'll see. I might discover some things after the track. I'm not one for modifying senslessly just to blow money.

I stand by what I said in the beginning. The STI is the best all around car I've owned. It has done everything I've needed it to do so far, all without skipping a beat and while being much more comfortable and practical than the FRS was. However, the FRS is still the most fun car I've owned. It was just practical enough to drive around on a daily basis (not very good for anything long distance) and it was loads of fun on the track, backroads, or whenever the roads got a little wet. 3rd gear clutch kicks at 20mph in the snow going up onramps was also fun

I miss the FRS sometimes, but "NO RAGRETS" with trading it in. Not even one letter.

Awesome, thank you for your response. I'm looking forward to your review on how your STi performs on the track!

[nikitopo]

WRX STI cars are much different from ours on the track. Their good point is not so much the high entry corner speed, but the higher acceleration after the apex. It is all about drag-racing after the apex. It is not only about power advantage, but also of how you transfer the power on the wheels (4wd vs. 2wd). This gives you much better results, but not a good flow if you know what I mean.

[TylerLieberman]

Wasn't able to get any exterior footage, but here's an interior clip from one of the sessions I did. I used it to watch my steering input and where I was looking while on track.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_8KIxM3GXk"]2016 STI Track Day AutoClub Speedway - YouTube[/ame]

Car did great. I'll have pictures along with my overall thoughts on the car posted later on.

[TylerLieberman]

Ok, so review time for the track day. The track was the Infield course, here at AutoClub Speedway in Fontana, California.

It was a Hooked on Driving event, which I was working at, so I didn't get much time on track. One session in the morning and one at the end of the day. Worked well for me as there was never more than like 6 or 7 other cars on track at the same time, and the weather was nice. It had a few random moments of heavy rain, but both times I was out on track, the surface was dry.

For the car, it's still 100% stock. The only thing I added was the RBF600 brake fluid. Also, in an attempt to help keep from excessive knock, I added Torco Octane Booster. I'm typically skeptical about these boosters, but a lot of the GTR track guys I know use it and have nothing but great things to say. 1 full bottle into a full tank, which calculates to just under 100 Octane.



First session:
Started off slow just to get a feel for the car and the course layout. Did 3 laps slowly increasing my pace, and then started pushing a little bit. C. Diff was set to Manual, full rear, with traction control completely off. The car did really good under braking and corner entry. I felt like the front end would wash out a little sooner than expected though mid-corner. It would cause some push and I'd have to adjust a bit. I think I was also over loading the tires though. I started at 32psi cold in the front and at the end of the session, they were up to 40psi! Damn! The rears were at 35psi cold and were at 39psi at the end of the session.

I knew that those tire pressures weren't ideal to start with, but I wanted to start out as baseline as possible for the car. So, aside from some better fluid and lower the front tire pressure a couple psi, the car is a showroom floor car, so to speak.

I also tried messing with the torque/brake vectoring on the car, but honestly wasn't impressed. I felt it work on one occasion going through a chicane, but felt no difference in the behavior of the car aside from that. I switched to full off after that, as the difference wasn't aparent enough to burn out my brake pads at a faster rate by using it.

The brakes felt really good, though braking is sort of a new concept to me as I come from a drifting background and aside from the handbrake and occasional left foot brake, I don't really use it much. I did start noticing a bit of fade at the very end of the session though. It felt great the rest of the time though. Good bite, good feel, good consistency.




Second session:
Started off by lowering my tire pressures. I went to 27psi cold up front, and 31psi cold in the rear. Insant improvement. The car felt much better mid-corner, and didn't push...as much. It's still there, but I blame the stock alignment. The car comes from the factory with like -0.5 camber up front, and -1.6 in the rear. It's obvious the car was set up to be "safe".

However, the change in tire pressures helped the front end stick a bit better. In fact, I could feel a bit more rotation on entry with some trailbraking, which was really nice. I got to feeling a bit more comfortable braking harder and later, using the trailbraking to rotate the car a little and carry a bit more speed through the corner. Not sure if that's really the best way to go about it, but the car felt much better to me by doing this.

Speaking of brakes, on this session, I started noticing a little bit of fade after doing 5 fast laps. At that point, I slowed my pace down for a couple laps to let everything cool a bit, and went back at it again for a couple more laps.

I felt like I really became comfortable with the car during this session. There was a pretty good driver in an NC Miata with dunlop ZIIs, 2.5L engine swap, and a Wilwood BBK that was able to hold with decently around the track for a few laps. He would stretch a little on me on braking and corner entry, but coming out of the corners and on to the straights, I'd close the gap again. That felt pretty good knowing that I was able to hold my own, given how little HPDE experience I have and knowing how deadly those little Miatas can be on the track.


Thoughts on the car:

Power: The car felt really good all day in terms of power. On the main straight, I was hitting 5th gear as I passed under the bridge, and then slowing back down to about 40mph for the first chicane. The back straight was top of 4th gear going through the chicane and then hard braking for the right hand corner. While a little more grunt in the mid range and up top would be nice, I honestly can't see myself going any further than a Stage 1 type of setup for this car.

Drivetrain: Really solid and responsive. I felt that the manual, 1/6 center diff setting was good, but I didn't get a chance to experiement with it. I recall seeing that Randy Pobst mentioned going manual, 1 under 50:50 lock was his favorite setting. That seems a bit weird, but I'm going to give it a shot next time out. Only complaint in this departement was shifting from 2nd to 3rd. It kept wanting to get stuck, so I ended up just using 3rd-5th. There was only one instance where I wanted to use 2nd, but it was weird anyways. It was like right at the top of 2nd, but just under the start of the powerband in 3rd, so I had to wait a second before getting the meat of the power when accelerating in 3rd gear out of that corner.

Suspension/Chassis: Everything felt really here. The car never felt lazy or slow to respond. Very confidence inspiring. You can feel the weight of the car mid-corner and coming out of the corner, but the power helps to really get your momentum up going onto the straights. My only gripe here was the front end push/understeer. I feel like an alignment change to add more camber up front, maybe around -2 would really help the car tremendously. I don't need the car sliding all over the place, but I would like the balance of the chassis a bit more neutral and to allow some rotation when I want it.

Overall Impressions: I love this car more than ever now. The car performed beautifully all day. Never had an issue where the car felt sluggish, or had an instance where the car got out of shape. Always composed, planted, and fun. Temps were good, brakes held up, motor felt strong (Actually spiked 17.9psi with the 55F ambient temp and 100 octane fuel). No burnt oil after checking the following morning. It just shows that all these stupid coments about the STI and EJ being weak are a bunch of BS. The car did everything I asked of it, and drove home just fine with my toasty heated seats going. Started up the next morning too lol. My only regret is not getting the chance to take the FRS out to one of these kind of events when I had it.


Plans: So after doing a track day, I have made note of a couple things I would like to change/add:
-Camber bolts
-Oil Catch Can
-Brake Pads

The camber bolts would be to dial in the extra camber up front, which I think would help a lot. The catch can, of course, to catch blow by; Although, I'm still not burning any oil.. It doesn't hurt to have, just as an extra safety measure. Brake pads of course too, because I could tell they were struggling a bit at the end of the 2nd session. I'm thinking something along the lines of Ferodo DS2500s, but we'll see.

Thanks for reading! I know it's not an FRS, but it's nice to see others enjoy seeing my thoughts on this car compared to the FRS. I try to remain as transparent and unbiased as possible. I'm not the best driver either, so some of my impressions may just be a result from minimal track experience like this, but we'll see. Always gotta learn if you want to improve.

[El Guapo]

It's awesome that your STi is doing well! Thanks for your review man! Will you be keeping this thread updated with your future mods? Might I also suggest getting an AOS over a catch can? They're a bit more convenient and I hear that IAG's AOS is the best in the market as of today. I had a Perrin AOS on my '05 STi and while it was on the cheaper side, it did its job well.

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by El Guapo

It's awesome that your STi is doing well! Thanks for your review man! Will you be keeping this thread updated with your future mods? Might I also suggest getting an AOS over a catch can? They're a bit more convenient and I hear that IAG's AOS is the best in the market as of today. I had a Perrin AOS on my '05 STi and while it was on the cheaper side, it did its job well.

Probably not, honestly. I'm just using this thread more to compare my experiences between the STI and the FRS I owned prior to it. Kind of the go to thread for people who are considering the transition to a WRX or STI. It's hard to find good information because a lot of people tend to be defensive of their purchase and it's easy to see the level of biased opinion.

I try to be as transparent and unbiased as possible. I can appreciate both cars, and I know where the strengths and weaknesses are for both. So I like to share my views to help others who might be trying to decided what they want to do.


In terms of AOS Vs. Catch can, I want catch can. For two reasons:
1. Some of the stuff I've seen a catch can collect, I don't want to go back into the engine, like an AOS would do.
2. The catch can allows me to monitor the amount of blow by I'm getting. If it becomes excessive, I can address it early on, where as the AOS, I don't have much of a way of knowing.

I have no issue spending 10 minutes emptying out the catch can once every oil change or whatever. Not a big deal. I intend to keep the car pretty much stock in terms of power, so I imagine that blow by should be minimal.

[WolfpackS2k]

After reading your track comments, am I correct that you used your OEM street pads? Ouch, hope they're not ruined.

Looks like a tight circuit. How fast were you getting; I'm guessing 110-115?

You used an octane booster as a safeguard against knock. Given the favorable ambient temp, is it common for turbo engines to have predetonation problems when being used within their design parameters? Honest question - I've never owned a turbo. Strikes me as odd, however.

Thanks for the write up!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

After reading your track comments, am I correct that you used your OEM street pads? Ouch, hope they're not ruined.

Looks like a tight circuit. How fast were you getting; I'm guessing 110-115?

You used an octane booster as a safeguard against knock. Given the favorable ambient temp, is it common for turbo engines to have predetonation problems when being used within their design parameters? Honest question - I've never owned a turbo. Strikes me as odd, however.

Thanks for the write up!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, stock pads. No issues. I know numerous people that have done multiple track days with STIs on stock pads. I just wanted to see how the car does completely stock. Pads will be coming soon.

The thing with the EJs is that they're known for oil blow by, as are other turbo engines, but it's a common ordeal on these motors. When that oil gets through to the combustion chamber, it will effectively lower the octane rating, which can cause knock. So, I boosted the octane of the fuel. So, even if there is a little bit of blow by and it's causing the octane to drop slightly, it would still be considerably higher than 91.

I heard no pinging, and the car never felt hesitant or uneasy. Smooth, consistent power the entire day. The car is stock, so if there is any blow by, it's very VERY minimal. I check my oil every other fill up and there's still no sign of any oil being burned either, so the car is doing well. A catch can is also in its future though.

[WolfpackS2k]

Thanks great to hear.

I was posting from my phone yesterday so I didn't notice that you live in CA. Though I should have figured that out from the track layout you posted. So I wasn't making the connection that your pump gas is 91 octane and not 93. I suppose that could play a minor factor.

I never tracked my S2000 or BRZ with stock pads. Read a few horror stories about them falling apart from the heat; put Carbotechs on both of them. I still haven't tracked my Cayman yet (horrible, I know) and while I think the stock OEM pads might be okay, I plan on using Pagid Yellows. The first track I plan on taking her to is a pretty fast one.

The braking upgrade alone seems like enough reason to buy an STI over a WRX, if one plans to attend track days.

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Thanks great to hear.

I was posting from my phone yesterday so I didn't notice that you live in CA. Though I should have figured that out from the track layout you posted. So I wasn't making the connection that your pump gas is 91 octane and not 93. I suppose that could play a minor factor.

I never tracked my S2000 or BRZ with stock pads. Read a few horror stories about them falling apart from the heat; put Carbotechs on both of them. I still haven't tracked my Cayman yet (horrible, I know) and while I think the stock OEM pads might be okay, I plan on using Pagid Yellows. The first track I plan on taking her to is a pretty fast one.

The braking upgrade alone seems like enough reason to buy an STI over a WRX, if one plans to attend track days.

Yeah I wouldn't track the BRZ/FRS with stock pads. I had a bit more confidence in these, since they're Brembos. They definitely aren't bulletfroom though.

Can't comment on the S2K since I've never driven one very hard, BUT if I were to buy a car strictly for weekends and track days, I'm 95% sure it would be an AP2.

Yeah, I bought the STI after growing tired of spending so much money modifying cars. I wanted something more complete from the factory. STI is a great platform. It can use a couple small things, but other than that, I think it's solid as is.

[TylerLieberman]

Back from the dead. Car has 18k miles on it and all is still well.

Car got an AOS, oil pickup, windage tray, and front/rear shifter bushings added.

Did another event a few months ago. Added Project Mu HC800 pads and Whiteline camber bolts. Stock alignment was -0.8f/-2.1r for camber. After alignment, the specs were -1.4/-2.0r for camber.




[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WzfUIBnpz4"]2016 STI Autoclub Speedway - YouTube[/ame]

The track was the ROVAL layout at Autoclub Speedway in Fontana, CA. Managed a lap time of 2:00.39, which I was pretty happy with.

The car did good, but the pads still couldn't manage for more than like 2 laps before showing some major fade. Camber bolts helped and let me rotate the car a bit easier on turn in, but still pushes more than I'd like.

I have some stuff sitting at home waiting to go on in the next month or so:
-DBA 4000 Rotors
-Project Mu Club Racer Pads
-Stoptech Steel Braided Brake Lines
-STI Group N Pitch Stop Mount
-STI Group N Transmission Mount
-Perrin Pitch Stop Mount Brace
-Swift Spec R Springs
-Whiteline Rear LCAs

Other than that, I don't plan on adding anything else to the car aside from an axleback exhaust and probably oil temp/oil pressure gauges.

Between all of this, and a new alignment, the car should have the handling characteristics I'm looking for, and better braking ability. Seeing how the OEM tires have 2 track days and nearly 18k miles on them, new tires will be needed soon. Likely going to be going with Dunlop ZII SS. I think with the tires and changes to the car, I should easily be able to shave off another 3-4 seconds. I need bigger balls on the bank too lol.

My end goal is to get under 1:55 on that track with stock power, which I think is very attainable with some seat time. Also plan on going to Buttonwillow this year. Hoping to break 2:05 there. Fingers crossed.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

Back from the dead. Car has 18k miles on it and all is still well.

Car got an AOS, oil pickup, windage tray, and front/rear shifter bushings added.

Did another event a few months ago. Added Project Mu HC800 pads and Whiteline camber bolts. Stock alignment was -0.8f/-2.1r for camber. After alignment, the specs were -1.4/-2.0r for camber.

The track was the ROVAL layout at Autoclub Speedway in Fontana, CA. Managed a lap time of 2:00.39, which I was pretty happy with.

The car did good, but the pads still couldn't manage for more than like 2 laps before showing some major fade. Camber bolts helped and let me rotate the car a bit easier on turn in, but still pushes more than I'd like.

I have some stuff sitting at home waiting to go on in the next month or so:
-DBA 4000 Rotors
-Project Mu Club Racer Pads
-Stoptech Steel Braided Brake Lines
-STI Group N Pitch Stop Mount
-STI Group N Transmission Mount
-Perrin Pitch Stop Mount Brace
-Swift Spec R Springs
-Whiteline Rear LCAs

Other than that, I don't plan on adding anything else to the car aside from an axleback exhaust and probably oil temp/oil pressure gauges.

Between all of this, and a new alignment, the car should have the handling characteristics I'm looking for, and better braking ability. Seeing how the OEM tires have 2 track days and nearly 18k miles on them, new tires will be needed soon. Likely going to be going with Dunlop ZII SS. I think with the tires and changes to the car, I should easily be able to shave off another 3-4 seconds. I need bigger balls on the bank too lol.

My end goal is to get under 1:55 on that track with stock power, which I think is very attainable with some seat time. Also plan on going to Buttonwillow this year. Hoping to break 2:05 there. Fingers crossed.

Damn man I have had my car for significantly less time and already have over 22k. You must not put a whole lot of miles on it. Nice pics though!

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by raven1231

Damn man I have had my car for significantly less time and already have over 22k. You must not put a whole lot of miles on it. Nice pics though!

lol I typically only use my car for work. School is right down the street, so I walk. We take my wife's Focus ST most of the time when we go somewhere together. Mostly because we know we're getting rid of it soon and don't mind putting more miles on it. Plus it's more comfy and gets way better MPG lol.

I'm doing about 700 miles per month. If 2017 goes how I'm planning with track events, I should over 30k come next December.