Review: Deceleration-sensing brake flasher.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by geezerbrzeezer

Actually, that's an even better idea. And it might garner even more of the desired safety/awareness/braking attention from the behind morons.

But having all three vs the third brake lights hooked up makes it no more or less illegal - it's either all good or all bad. It may come down to an interpretation of the wording in the law.

I think the definition of the word 'intermittent' is key - not going to spell that out here as anyone can look up its myriad scope of interpretation.

Whereas flashing lights allowable on emergency vehicles are a toggle on and then regular flash interval until toggle off, the product from OP works only in tandem with the application of a safety device.

But I seriously like the idea of having all the brake lights affected, and it would go a long way to disguising that there is anything special about the brake light system.

You asked if they were legal. They are not. I think you would have a tough time with a judge by arguing the definition of intermittent. The point is sort of moot anyway since I doubt you would ever get pulled over for it unless they wanted to tell you your brake lights were malfunctioning.

I think flashing brake lights are a horrid idea! Yes they would get attention but it would also confuse the hell out of people since brake lights don't flash. Confused people are even more likely to do something dumb than dumb people and I don't even want to imagine what a confused dumb person would do. I picture people just slamming in the back of you and then saying (quite honestly) "I didn't know they were stopping since their brake lights didn't stay on". I know what names I would call somebody if I came up behind them an their brake lights were all flashing.

[geezerbrzeezer]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You asked if they were legal. They are not. I think you would have a tough time with a judge by arguing the definition of intermittent.

Flashing lights are not legal as the law is currently written, ostensibly to prevent non emergency vehicles travelling the roads with flashing lights, and written well before OP's technology existed or was even envisioned. But the casual use of flashing lights is not what this product represents.

And the lawyers could tear apart the word intermittent during a challenge, and with some countries already allowing this, who knows?

I wouldn't want my brake lights flashing all of the time either - I like that it's programmable and has an accelerometer so a sensible setup can be achieved, much as OP has described.

It's a an additional way to alert the douche bags to the rear that deceleration is happening, and if my brake lights can flash rapidly when the deceleration rate increase, I'm all for it. As it is, I currently tap my brakes a few times if someone is following too closely as I'm stopping (not to 'brake check' them and piss them off, but to activate the lights and wake them up).

Static 'brake lights on' situations can be lost within the empty space of the skulls full of mush loosely attached to the necks of many drivers, so if I can have a tool to heighten safety, I think it's worth investigating.

And picture those situations where you've got a sudden massive, unexpected braking event on a multilane highway - those flashing brake lights are going to provide better warning.

There's a reason emergency vehicles have flashing lights, why some drivers activate hazards in the fog or when pulled onto the shoulder - visibility. If that can be incorporated sensibly into braking activity, great.

I think when you install this on your car and get pulled over for it, you're going to win your case.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by geezerbrzeezer

Flashing lights are not legal as the law is currently written, ostensibly to prevent non emergency vehicles travelling the roads with flashing lights, and written well before OP's technology existed or was even envisioned. But the casual use of flashing lights is not what this product represents.

And the lawyers could tear apart the word intermittent during a challenge, and with some countries already allowing this, who knows?

I wouldn't want my brake lights flashing all of the time either - I like that it's programmable and has an accelerometer so a sensible setup can be achieved, much as OP has described.

It's a an additional way to alert the douche bags to the rear that deceleration is happening, and if my brake lights can flash rapidly when the deceleration rate increase, I'm all for it. As it is, I currently tap my brakes a few times if someone is following too closely as I'm stopping (not to 'brake check' them and piss them off, but to activate the lights and wake them up).

Static 'brake lights on' situations can be lost within the empty space of the skulls full of mush loosely attached to the necks of many drivers, so if I can have a tool to heighten safety, I think it's worth investigating.

And picture those situations where you've got a sudden massive, unexpected braking event on a multilane highway - those flashing brake lights are going to provide better warning.

There's a reason emergency vehicles have flashing lights, why some drivers activate hazards in the fog or when pulled onto the shoulder - visibility. If that can be incorporated sensibly into braking activity, great.

I think when you install this on your car and get pulled over for it, you're going to win your case.

I repeat. They will confuse more people than they alert. Brake lights are not supposed to be flashing that is why emergency vehicles have normal brake lights as well as flashing lights. One let's people know they are there the other let's them know they are braking. The two should not be combined. No doubt that if flashing brake lights heightened safety they would already be required not the other way around and they are banned.

[churchx]

I won't agree on if they heightened safety they already be required bit. After all, why else americans still don't have amber turn signals like rest of world even when it's proven by their own traffic safety researches that it would be safer? How was it about endless/eternal things .. universe and human stupidity and not being sure on universe bit?
Still, i wouldn't want someone's brake lights flashing by someone driving in front of me either. My opinion is that it more annoys/distracts/confuses then actually does good in rising awareness of performed manoeuvre.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by churchx

I won't agree on if they heightened safety they already be required bit. After all, why else americans still don't have amber turn signals like rest of world even when it's proven by their own traffic safety researches that it would be safer? How was it about endless/eternal things .. universe and human stupidity and not being sure on universe bit?
Still, i wouldn't want someone's brake lights flashing by someone driving in front of me either. My opinion is that it more annoys/distracts/confuses then actually does good in rising awareness of performed manoeuvre.

My saying that they would already be required was a sort of sarcastic comment on the way Canada likes to add requirements to car manufacturers but then not require people to actually have that item on the car. The list of things that they must have on the car to sell it new but then can immediately be legally removed by the owner is huge.

[FX86]

Originally Posted by churchx

I won't agree on if they heightened safety they already be required bit. After all, why else americans still don't have amber turn signals like rest of world even when it's proven by their own traffic safety researches that it would be safer? How was it about endless/eternal things .. universe and human stupidity and not being sure on universe bit?
Still, i wouldn't want someone's brake lights flashing by someone driving in front of me either. My opinion is that it more annoys/distracts/confuses then actually does good in rising awareness of performed manoeuvre.

we don't use amber-only turn signals and we light bright flashing lights simply because 'MURICA!

[geezerbrzeezer]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I repeat. They will confuse more people than they alert. Brake lights are not supposed to be flashing that is why emergency vehicles have normal brake lights as well as flashing lights. One let's people know they are there the other let's them know they are braking. The two should not be combined. No doubt that if flashing brake lights heightened safety they would already be required not the other way around and they are banned.

I somewhat agree with this. But again, a brake light flashing a 'regular' pattern as soon as the pedal is pushed - thus emulating the emergency vehicle flashing lights in a sense and prohibited on non emerg vehicles - is not the product OP is talking about, a product that seems to be legal elsewhere.

How can this new product be banned when the law was written before this item was conceived, manufactured or deployed? It's not a black and white argument.

And with the retina burn led flashers on the emerg vehicles nowadays, good for you if you can pick out brake and signal lights through that craziness.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by geezerbrzeezer

I somewhat agree with this. But again, a brake light flashing a 'regular' pattern as soon as the pedal is pushed - thus emulating the emergency vehicle flashing lights in a sense and prohibited on non emerg vehicles - is not the product OP is talking about, a product that seems to be legal elsewhere.

How can this new product be banned when the law was written before this item was conceived, manufactured or deployed? It's not a black and white argument.

And with the retina burn led flashers on the emerg vehicles nowadays, good for you if you can pick out brake and signal lights through that craziness.

Doesn't matter when it was made it is a flashing red light that is not a hazard light PERIOD. Say to a judge "but you honour this didn't exist when the law was made and it is legal elsewhere so it is OK" and see if he agrees. You can try to argue the definition of intermittent all you wish a light that flashes is intermittent. It does say "unless it flashes in a certain pattern". You may never get puled over for it but would certainly annoy the hell out of anybody following you.
Do what you wish with your third brake light but leave the others alone. People expect brake light to be on when the brakes are and off when they are not seemingly flashing at random.

[geezerbrzeezer]

Originally Posted by churchx

I won't agree on if they heightened safety they already be required bit. After all, why else americans still don't have amber turn signals like rest of world even when it's proven by their own traffic safety researches that it would be safer?

I added the 'tails as turns' module from Diode Dynamics, which eliminates the amber signal light (now an led reverse light), and has the brake lights doubling as a signal lights.

Before doing so, I followed my car (wife driving) under various lighting and distance conditions - full sun and full to no moon, tailgating to 500 yards - and there was not a single instance where the amber lights came even close to 'outwarning' or more obviously signalling intentions vs the combination brake/signal lights - the combo sig/brake was so much more effective that I was shocked.

Go ahead and label my test subjective. But based on just how good these stock 86 tail lights performed with the DD mod, and despite that I wanted aftermarket tail lights pretty badly, I'm keeping the stockers.

Where I would agree with your premise is if we're discussing the lamentable incandescent bulbs that doubled/double as brake/sigs in red lenses for so many years (in my current POS work van for instance).

Tech is advancing so rapidly that the research you allude to, published at 5pm Thursday could be obsolete by 8am Friday.

[churchx]

It's not about visibility/initial noticeability of flashing red vs amber light. It's about ease & speed of decoding signaling & lessening misread. Imho nice writeup on this matter. Drivers don't have to 2nd guess of what you'll do. And what others on traffic, no matter what mods they do or do not have installed, too. After all, rules and regulations should be consistent accross all of cars/trucks/buses and so on. And i won't deny any of your tests. Just that NHTSA one covered much bigger diversity of cars/trucks (traffic on public roads is not of FT86es only, ya know) and way more test samples and found amber turns actually noticeably decreasing chances of crashes. You speak of modern technologies? Well, one of reasons against amber turn lights on your side of pond seems to be EPLLA regulation made for limitations of lights from 50ies that was also never proven to increase safety unlike amber turn signals do.

[geezerbrzeezer]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Doesn't matter when it was made it is a flashing red light that is not a hazard light PERIOD.

You are absolutely correct. "no person shall use a lamp, other than the vehicular hazard warning signal lamps commonly known as four way flashers, that produces intermittent flashes of red light"


But the key word is 'flashes'. While doing some more digging about this subject, I found this:

"Pulse is the only pulsing third brake light that meets regulatory requirements for use in all 50 states. Step on the brake pedal and Pulse goes to work pulsing, rather than flashing, the third brake light. What’s the difference? DOT regulations restrict flashing lights to emergency vehicles. Our award winning rear-end collision avoidance technology causes the third brake light to remain steady burning and within the acceptable range of specified minimum and maximum photometric thresholds, throughout the pulsing cycle."

I realize that this is US based, but wondering if this might be a loophole for Canadians.

The problem is our cars are already eye candy, and the officer pulling you over isn't going to know or care that the light isn't flashing, but is 'pulsing', so there will likely be a fine, and they're not cheap - min $200.

I love the idea, but until the laws change or a test case with a pulsing brake light sets a precedent in favour of, I can't install this yet.

[geezerbrzeezer]

Originally Posted by churchx

It's not about visibility/initial noticeability of flashing red vs amber light. It's about ease & speed of decoding signaling & lessening misread. Imho nice writeup on this matter.

Excellent info.

It seems that we on this side of the pond need to be dragged (kicking and screaming) into the 20th century. And then perhaps into the 21st.

[catsspat]

Here are 2 videos I took as promised. I'm not sure if YouTube mangled the frame rate or what, but the flashes don't look even on YouTube videos, but they were mostly fine in the original video. Frame rate isn't all that great even in the original video, so even that doesn't look that great compared to the real life.

First video is where I start out with light braking (1-flash-ON), transitioning to medium braking (6-flashes-ON).
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weiUTv1-buo"]3rdbrakeflasher test 1 - YouTube[/ame]

Second video is where I start out with hard braking (16-faster-flashes-ON). The snare drum like sound is just the crappy Primacy HP tires slipping around in small rocks on the road in the cold weather. I'm planning to replace the wheels and the tires next spring.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqaYcGQQA-E"]3rdbrakeflasher test 2 - YouTube[/ame]

In normal driving, I can entirely avoid medium/high modes. Of course, I'm not thinking about it, but if I have to brake hard, then those modes will come into play. I had what I believe a usefulness event just two days away on the Impreza. There was a back up near a freeway exit and the car went from low to medium braking (EyeSight Adaptive Cruise was doing everything for me), and as soon as the medium 6-flash happened, the car behind me braked harder. I do have a video from my rear-facing dashcam, but I won't share it because it's not conclusive if the brake flasher had anything to do with the added distance. But I felt it did, looking at the rear view mirror, as I could even see the driver's face.

[catsspat]

Originally Posted by churchx

It's not about visibility/initial noticeability of flashing red vs amber light. It's about ease & speed of decoding signaling & lessening misread.

Exactly! Just the other day, I experienced this.

I was in the 2nd lane from the right, where the right most lane is an exit lane, and my car and the car on the right was close enough side-by-side that I could barely see the left-side rear lamps but not the right-side rear lamps.

And that car's left brake light flashed, as if it was signaling left. I have no idea if it was the brake light or signal light since it was red and it flashed as if it was a signal light. I could not see the right side as I mentioned before.

Basically, I could not tell if it was just braking early for the freeway exit, or it realized late that it wanted to merge back in to stay on the freeway. Since I wasn't sure, I braked, which in itself is a disruptive event to other drivers around me, especially behind me, but I most certainly didn't want to get into an accident if the car suddenly swerved back onto the freeway.

If it were amber lights, I'd never have doubted which it was. There is a good reason almost all other countries require amber signal lights.