Car and Driver is F-ing Stupid

[Yardjass]

So lets talk about the Cayman again.


The IMS bearing is basically a non-issue if you get one new enough. I'm not saying a lot of that other stuff is okay, but it is almost all contingent on you beating the ever living crap out of the car in a way more serious than the occasional back road corner carving or stoplight race.


If someone is looking for a fun, reliable daily driver, most of that is not an issue. Furthermore, you can commonly buy these up with low mileage, that have been sitting in a garage on a battery tender and started up a couple of times a week to keep the fluids circulated. Being that they're a fairly modern car, it isn't unreasonable to expect years of decent reliability out of something like that.


On the other hand, anyone who frequents a race track or a drag strip and expects any sort of reliability out of ANY car, is an idiot.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

On the other hand, anyone who frequents a race track or a drag strip and expects any sort of reliability out of ANY car, is an idiot.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_tjM8eEqUo"]Mazda commercial - YouTube[/ame]

[fuddbutter]

Originally Posted by Mr.Impreza

Wow...you bought the wrong car buddy. If you have had to invest 30k already to just consider the car to be up to your standards...you should of not bought it

~

An no....buying a BMW won't allow you to be "done with it". BMW just gives you VIP access to the dealerships garage since you'll be seeing it monthly.

Trust me...I've owned BMW's

I have also owned a BMW. I have owned quite a lot of cars.

My BMW was probably more reliable than my BRZ.
maybe my standards are higher than everyone else's?

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

According to Edmunds, they use JD Power and rate a 2006 Cayman as more reliable than a 2013 BRZ.

http://www.edmunds.com/porsche/cayma...9/reliability/

http://www.edmunds.com/subaru/brz/20...e/reliability/

Might want to read what the rating really is. It's NOT reliability alone. Hover over the question marks to see what it really means. If someone thought the crickets were annoying it's a bad mark against engine "reliability." Same crap as Consumer Reports.

Cost of ownership in repairs alone, a 2013 BRZ's five year total is roughly the same as ONE year on the Porsche. They rate the maintenance costs higher on the BRZ over 5 years (no fing idea why when the consumables are so much cheaper and the engine is chain driven) and insurance (likely kid drivers pushing the BRZ up like they did to the WRX years ago), but everything else is far higher on the Porsche.

Regardless, it simply doesn't matter as if you were to buy a new BRZ you'd have a warranty that would cover damn near anything while you'd be completely boned on the old Porsche.

We're back to the stupid MR-S argument again...

[EAGLE5]

Get them all, bitches!

[EAGLE5]

Edmunds TCO are a mess. Their TMV is a mess. Their whole model is a mess. Is it better than nothing? Sure. Is it accurate? Hell no.

For me, for where I live, and for what I've driven, insurance prices barely change. Maybe $100/year difference between a new BMW and a new Subaru. Drop collision coverage and there's another 50 bucks to save. I pay for liability protection.

Want to know relative depreciation? Look at Craigslist ads and ebay sold listing.

Do some multiplication and division with gas prices and MPG.

Then think about repairs and consumables.

Now you know approximately what a car is going to cost.

[DarkSunrise]

Again comes back to used vs. new. A 10 yo used Porsche that's depreciated to 50% or less of its MSRP is always going to look like a smoking bargain compared to any new car. But that's without factoring in maintenance, repairs and the chance of catastrophic damage without a warranty to cover it (read: IMS bearing or RMS issues - overblown yes, but certainly has happened). On a 986 or 987.1 Boxster S, you're looking at $20k to have a new engine installed or $10k if you want to roll the dice with a used engine.

I used to own a 987.2 Boxter S (which had the redesigned "bulletproof" MA1 engine) and even that developed oil and coolant leaks. When I spoke to the shop, they figured the cost to fix would be in the thousands.

They're fantastic cars, but anyone who buys one without taking into account the possibility of major costs for upkeep and repairs is being financially reckless. Yes chances are you'll be ok, but if that sword happens to fall on you, you better be ready. That goes doubly so if you plan to track it hard.

[Lantana frs]

If I have something im not happy with I move on to something else.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Lantana frs

If I have something im not happy with I move on to something else.

What a novel concept! Wish more would think of that.

[brzaapi]

I am not an expert, nor do i claim to be. But after having owned 3 987s and 3 BRZs. Also all 3 were in different states of modification at different times. I will say without a doubt the BRZ cost less to own on average by a factor of 3 to 5. As far as reliablity, they are both probably pretty close when it comes to DD. On the track, the Porsche wins....but it is not bulletproof.

You dont need a survey to tell you... that when( not if, but when) things go wrong the P-car is gonna cost you much more. They both will cost you when problems arise, but i could run 3 BRZs for the cost to run 1 Cayman. Thats no bullshit. Whether you run a newer Porsche and pay up front or own an older one and pay on the back end for maintenance and repairs.....you are going to pay more overall for a P-car.


These are just my observations, and i feel i have learned more than any survey can tell me. So again it comes down to budget. But if anyone thinks they are going to own a Porsche and it will be cheaper in the long run than a BRZ, no way. And after driving 3 BRZs hard, i have to say i think they hold up pretty well.

[P86RAVES]

Originally Posted by brzaapi

I am not an expert, nor do i claim to be. But after having owned 3 987s and 3 BRZs.

Why did you end up going with another S2000?

[Scrappydoo]

Originally Posted by fuddbutter

I have also owned a BMW. I have owned quite a lot of cars.

My BMW was probably more reliable than my BRZ.
maybe my standards are higher than everyone else's?

Are you telling us you're speshul?

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by P86RAVES

Why did you end up going with another S2000?

ahahahaha.....this could be a long answer. I have tried and owned several different cars in my soul search for the right one. But let me keep this short. My wife and i both AX/track cars. But she eventually needed a different car than me. As we got better we spent more money on our respective toys. Some were traded because they turned out to not be what we wanted, and others were upgrades. Since we had two track toys in the house, we got try several different cars in both our searches. We are lucky, we both have good jobs and didnt have kids till late 30s. Unfortunately 2 of the BRZs were destroyed in accidents. Subaru...I lived! Neither accident was my fault. We didnt replace our last BRZ cause we now have a 1 year old girl and just recently found out another one is on the way.

So the wife is not tracking right now.

Anyways, after all the cars i have experience in (some a lot, others a few laps or one session) from vettes, 1LE Camaro, Stangs, EVO, STI, BRZ, 911, 987, 981, etc. I decided that the S2000 was the most tracked focused of all them, while still being in my pocketbook range. A BRZ is much easier to master, an S2000 has a long learning curve. Plus it handles track abuse well and with a good driver, can punch way, way above its weight class. On top of that the S2000 has a nuance in the corners that is lacking from many cars. The BRZ included. I didnt know what a BRZ was lacking mid-corner, till i got serious in an S2000. I still prefer the turn-in on the BRZ though, but it can't rotate like the S2000. Mind you if i was on bigger, longer tracks i would prefer a BRZ, but my local tracks are tighter and technical. So for the money the S2000 will let me track and grow as a driver for years to come, and i will probablly never completely master the car. I learn something new about the S2000 all the time when i drive her.

That being said i love the BRZ. Its great, my wife loves it. So we are in the hunt for another one. No rush, but with the new kiddos we dont need the P-Car expenses. I cant perform all the work on a P-car. But BRZs are a BReeZe to work on, fastest/cleanest oil change in the world. The S2000 is sharper on the track inherently than the BRZ. But the BRZ makes up for it and more when it comes to street driving. Plus i hate convertibles. I know, I know...i refuse to look at the S2000 as a vert. I have a Hrdtop now, and the soft top was ripped out.

I can afford to "BUY" P-cars and vettes, but i can afford to "BUY & TRACK" S2000s and BRZs. So thats why i chose an S2000 for a dedicated track car. If i wanted a car to run double duty, it would be the BRZ.

I feel like I said a lot, but at the same time i didnt really say anything. Just like my lawyer. Anyways, hope that answers it.

[P86RAVES]

Originally Posted by brzaapi

I feel like I said a lot, but at the same time i didnt really say anything. Just like my lawyer. Anyways, hope that answers it.

That does answer it a very well, so thank you for that.

You've found the S2000 a more focused car on the type of tracks you drive on in comparison to the BRZ, but if you drove more regularly on less technical courses or if the car was pulling double duty more regularly then you would opt for the BRZ.

With kids, instead of having one car like the BRZ split the difference between track and daily-duty, you've opted for a more Family-ready vehicle for daily and have the S2K dedicated as a track car.

You sound like you make may sporting events a year, and since you're wife does as well it's a big part of your life. That also mean you use a lot of fuel, tire, and brakes and those are things the BRZ is pretty easy on. Did that sort of thing go into your decision?