Car and Driver is F-ing Stupid

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Poodles

By definition, a sports car is a car that can be used in sports e.g. racing....

That's a fair cop. I'll take it.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

That's a fair cop. I'll take it.

Drag racing is a form of racing (and arguably one of the oldest...). Does that make a Buick Grand National a sports car?

[MrFisty]

Originally Posted by Poodles

By definition, a sports car is a car that can be used in sports e.g. racing...

Hell, I can race anything.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by venturaII

Drag racing is a form of racing (and arguably one of the oldest...). Does that make a Buick Grand National a sports car?

[DoomsdayJesus]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Weird, I had a CSRT4 and aside from the massive torque steer the car handled awesome. With the huge brakes and special suspension bits that car is one of the funnest things I have ever driven.


I know the SRT4 neon had the ACR package available which seems to do really well at autox.

I had a 2004 so at least it had the LSD, and it was rock solid at high speeds on the autobahn, but that's not exactly a track. Didn't have the ACR in 2004 when I bought it unfortunately.

It was as about as good as you can expect for an FWD at that price, but you had to put some work into it for turns that the BRZ carves with ease. I may have ignored the suspension for go-fast bits in my youthful exuberance as well

It's funny I ran into a PFC at work who still has one, and I still had a bin of old and some never installed but good parts I pulled and intended to sell, so I just sold them to him at fire sale prices or just gave them to him. He looked like he had tripped into a gold mine. I do still really miss that car though, just the speed was . . . unf.

Edit: Found a picture of one giving way to the next. Some Jersey driver strayed across the Delaware River into Philly long enough to swerve into my lane with no signal and I hit the jersey barrier . Hardly any body damage but two broken axles and two broken wheels were enough to total it with 65k mi.

[DoomsdayJesus]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Was your Srt-4 a 2003? I had a 2005 and took it to the track a couple of times. It did very well considering it's FWD. I also had aftermarket swaybars on it though.

I've always wanted to drive a CSRT-4.

I had a 2004. I should have paid attention to the easy to fix suspension parts like sway bars. I have bigger rear sway bars on even my 2011 Outback now for that very reason :V.

That thing just had habits in tight turns that kind of scared me away from really pushing it. It could have been inexperience, I was about 21 when I bought it. But I got the feeling it was because it was front heavy and was slipping up front if the throttle was applied mid-turn with speed. I had it through 2010 though, it ended up holding the road pretty damn well.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by Toroll

I don't really get where the hate is coming from. Are you jealous I have another car that is cheaper and more capable?

Why would I be jealous when I could afford a brand new BRZ Limited at MSRP and have fully paid it off. Not hating but also not sure why you are so proud of having a cheap used car then got to troll a 86/FRS/BRZ forum with it lol!

I bought a BRZ because Honda won't make me a brand new DC2 Integra Type-R and I don't even like Toyota per se (far from being a fanboy).

I just buy for my current needs and could care less what you have or like. You just made an ass out of yourself.

[prj3ctm4yh3m]

Originally Posted by krayzie

Why would I be jealous when I could afford a brand new BRZ Limited at MSRP and have fully paid it off. Not hating but also not sure why you are so proud of having a cheap used car then got to troll a 86/FRS/BRZ forum with it lol!

I bought a BRZ because Honda won't make me a brand new DC2 Integra Type-R and I don't even like Toyota per se (far from being a fanboy).

I just buy for my current needs and could care less what you have or like. You just made an ass out of yourself.

he's a troll.

[Toroll]

Originally Posted by krayzie

Why would I be jealous when I could afford a brand new BRZ Limited at MSRP and have fully paid it off. Not hating but also not sure why you are so proud of having a cheap used car then got to troll a 86/FRS/BRZ forum with it lol!

I bought a BRZ because Honda won't make me a brand new DC2 Integra Type-R and I don't even like Toyota per se (far from being a fanboy).

I just buy for my current needs and could care less what you have or like. You just made an ass out of yourself.

Congratulations you have a fully paid beautiful car. Now I know why you hate this article so much. If something boosted comes in the future, your Limited version won't be the best version anymore. I really hope and pray next year, they will release a boosted version just for you to feel bad.

I am proud of my other car (spyder), because it is cheap and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Any open minded car enthusiast will agree to that. I don't really understand why you hate it so much.

BTW, do you miss your VTEC? For you who used to rev at 8400+ rpm definitely miss that. Those DC2 Type R are actually faster than the twin, and they are called the "greatest FWD performer ever".

You know, I am thinking of getting a new project car, a k20 spyder . This is actually very common project for Spyder swappers. 260whp N/A at 9,000 glorious VTEC from a 2.0L is so much possible with these beautiful K20. Nah.. A frankenstein K24 for a 300whp is better.

Oh look, I found a body which you can probably talk them down for $2000.
Body 1
Body 2

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by why?

So did Toyota with every MR2. You say it like it was a negative. Parts bin happens in every single manufacturer, including all the luxury ones without which car prices would be even more crazier than they are now.

Unless you've been around and messed with a Fiero, it's hard to convey just how parts bin it is. It feels more like a kit car made of a bunch of parts from other cars...

Originally Posted by venturaII

You can't neuter something that was designed that way to begin with. Chevette front suspension and Citation driveline in the rear was EXACTLY parts bin engineering, which was the intention from day one. Even all the original prototypes that were leaked to the magazines had a simple 4-popper GM motor. It was designed as a stylish, affordable car for Joe and Jane Average. Every road test article of the day started with the caveat that GM had repeatedly declared they designed this as a commuter car, not as a performance car. Media pressure and subsequent public outcry was the only reason the reengineered it to be something else.

Yes and no. They pitched the deal to superiors as being a commuter car to get it past them, but wanted to make a sports car. Then they got shackled with one of the lowest budgets ever for a new platform. This ended with them having crap parts because it was cheap and them spending the budget on the body.

Originally Posted by prj3ctm4yh3m

D4S: better heads and port injection. we will look back and rejoice.

Yep. Just ask the people tuning WRX's and ask their opinion. The D4S system is far FAR superior.

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

although it's hard to believe an ungainly 4dr sedan is being cross-shopped with a 2 door coupe).

A ton of people do that very thing, including me. As they sit, they're about the same price, and you're certainly getting a hell of a lot more for your money with the WRX. But damn it's ugly compared to the BRZ

Originally Posted by Toroll

Sigh.. So if a person who wants a cheap sporty car that will be tracked once in awhile is not allowed to choose from discontinued car? What kind of a logic is this? What does warranty have to do with a casual track car? Also, people who knows how to hold a wrench do not need warranty. The Spyder is so simple and cheap to repair. The 2zz is proven engine and the choice of Lotus. If a 2zz ever grenades, it is so cheap that you don't even want to repair it because you can just buy another.

A casual (middle class) car enthusiast will look at performance per dollar and the 2zz MR-S will win over the Twin by a long shot. Most people buy cars and most of them have budget in mind. Also, people who wants to track, mod and abuse their cars will not likely get a brand new car. Your warranty will not probably cover that if they knew it was tracked.

The stock 1zz MR-S have identical performance with our twin.. it is basically the closest car the twin have replaced so it is only logical to compare the two.

My twin is my primary DD. I have it because it is sporty, more comfy, more room and has some modern amenities but I also have the Spyder as my 2nd DD and I use it when I am feeling like I want a more spirited driving and if I want to track/autoX. The two were created with sporty performance in mind (not for grocery getter, that's what the Corolla is for) and I tell you what, the 2zz MR-S will shit on the a stock Twin anytime of the day performance wise... also way cheaper, and slightly better in MPG. Everything else, the Twin wins (comfy wise, room, practicality, safety, smell).

Your complains about shifting more on getting a low 0-60 is legit... but I tell you son, you cannot use this as an excuse in a quarter mile test. Our Twin only traps at best at 94mph, a stock corolla 05' XRS can easily do that. It isn't really that impressive anymore. Many vehicles are now capable of that.

One word: Miata

Engine performance simply isn't comparable with older cars and the twins. CAFE standards and other world standards on emissions have only gotten more stringent. Honda has said they couldn't make some of their best engines today because they wouldn't meet the current standards...

You're also off on your numbers for the Corolla XRS. C&D clocked it at 90MPH in the 1/4. Not to mention the twins get better gas mileage than the XRS did while having more power and being faster

Originally Posted by Toroll

BTW, you cannot spank my N/A 2zz MR-S with a Supra in twisties. The MR-S is not a drag racing queen like the Supra. The MR-S will also be cheaper and probably safer.

You apparently know nothing of the Supra's performance in twisties (hint: they suck for drag racing unless heavily modified). Sure, the MR-S is cheaper, but HELL NO to being safer.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Poodles

Yes and no. They pitched the deal to superiors as being a commuter car to get it past them, but wanted to make a sports car. Then they got shackled with one of the lowest budgets ever for a new platform. This ended with them having crap parts because it was cheap and them spending the budget on the body.

Yeah, I can read Wikipedia too. Problem with that, is when it's written by someone who never read the original marketing and advertising material, and PR interviews with GM reps in all the major car rags of the day, and only has folklore and hindsight to base their assumptions on, the article is written from the perspective of a fan. If you've read them, you'd recall that every car magazine of the day would preface their critique of the car with "we know it wasn't intended to be, but what if...", knowing that if enough of the public got behind them, they could convince GM to make the car THE MEDIA wanted. George Milidrag and Hulki Aldikacti?? Not exactly in the list of GM's premier designers, which is why they were simply given already proven drivetrain and suspension platforms (which were then used for many more years by GM after the Fiero, as very successful and popular platform bases). And the claim that the '88 car was their 'original design' is garbage as well, as the revamp clearly had the technical influence of Lotus who were being courted at that time, and were not even in the picture in the late 70's when the Fiero concept started. EVERYONE at GM was still in 'Fuel Crisis' mode, including designers, because they knew what was selling. Even the CORVETTE was stuck with a 180bhp 305.


And as far as 'crap' design goes, even the lowly original '83 production cars used GM's then-brand new X-platform design, which was the basis for one of their most popular and successful drivetrain/chassis platforms lasting well into the 2000's, and powered the best selling car in America in the very first year of it's production.


The low budget was due to the economy being in the dumps, and GM basically not trusting a couple of nobody-designers to make something remotely marketable. That they had the smarts to use parts-bin engineering is a testament to the final product, not a detriment. Was it dull, especially when viewed through the eyes of someone weaned on vehicles of the 90's or later? Sure - but EVERYTHING back then was.

[Ultramaroon]

80s were some dark times for US-made autos. I blame it on many things but CAD systems were in their infancy and they weren't good at modeling more organic shapes. That coupled with the ever-present drive to control manufacturing costs resulted in some ugly, rickety looking shit.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

80s were some dark times for US-made autos. I blame it on many things but CAD systems were in their infancy and they weren't good at modeling more organic shapes. That coupled with the ever-present drive to control manufacturing costs resulted in some ugly, rickety looking shit.

It certainly was the transition from slide rules to software, but that doesn't account for the generally terrible styling of the time. Even then, the press seemed to reluctantly acknowledge how dull everything had become..

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by venturaII

It certainly was the transition from slide rules to software, but that doesn't account for the generally terrible styling of the time. Even then, the press seemed to reluctantly acknowledge how dull everything had become..

I experienced the transition from the drafting board to the computer. I'm not saying it was the sole reason but the tools of the trade have a tremendous impact on the creative and design processes.

It was a major influence.