Brakes Upgrades

[dooms101]

I just picked up a 2016 FRS the other week and I'm loving it. I'm planning on going to some HPDE events soon and so I want to do some light upgrades. Probably going to keep the budget less then $2500 for now.

I've been checking out all the options for upgrades on this forum and I am really liking the idea of putting a supercharger in next year. I have a long list of parts to put in before then and I am thinking the best place to start would be tires, wheels, and brakes.

I have the base FRS so I don't have the nicer brembos that come on the release series. Is there a good source to pick up a set of these plus any needed hardware? New or refurbed doesn't matter

I know that better pads and rotors plus maybe stainless lines is a good option. I've found a stoptech kit with front and rear for $700. I'm sure that would be a good upgrade but I wonder if upgrading the calipers is worth it too. I am also not sure if thats a good brand or not.

[dooms101]

Just found this kit for a wilwood BBK for $980. I'm thinking that's my best option so far. It's probably a bit overkill until I get more power but I doubt it could hurt.

[ryoma]

all you really need are pads and fluid. getting a BBK is mostly for the bling and the 5% of owners who actually need it. I would say just buy some track pads and fluid then save the rest for other mods like proper tires and wheels. not to mention your average $120 entrance fee to the track too

[Captain Snooze]

You left out brake fluid from your list.
Brakes are certainly the first upgrade you should do. Better to have more braking capacity* than not enough.
If you are tracking your car on a regular basis a bbk is worth it. You save money on consumables in the long run. Less unsprung weight is also a benefit. I don't the idea of one piece rotors as they are usually heavier than 2 piece.
Rear brake hardware upgrade is un-necessary; a pad and fluid change is all that's required for the rear unless you are turning your car into a high powered track only car.
Forget about painted calipers. If you are using your brakes the paint is going to discolour.
Some dedicated light weight wheels with decent rubber is also a good investment.

*As you probably already know a bbk is not there to reduce braking distance but to manage heat.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Rear brake hardware upgrade is un-necessary; a pad and fluid change is all that's required for the rear unless you are turning your car into a high powered track only car.

*As you probably already know a bbk is not there to reduce braking distance but to manage heat.

Oh really?

[churchx]

Yes.

If one judges by wear, then rear pads need to be changed 4-5x less often. You won't gain much by changing rears too except bling factor.

If brakes are capable of locking wheels/triggering ABS (stock are already), then they are sufficient to have best braking distance. Only changing tires to more grippier ones will reduce braking distance (but so it will work with stock brakes too). With BBKs you simply can go on track for longer time without overheating them.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Oh really?

Would you care to elaborate on that?

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by churchx

If brakes are capable of locking wheels/triggering ABS (stock are already), then they are sufficient to have best braking distance.

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Would you care to elaborate on that?

So when STI upgrades the brakes of the car and changes the ABS trigger engagement levels, they don't know what they are doing.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

So when STI upgrades the brakes of the car and changes the ABS trigger engagement levels, they don't know what they are doing.

No, I did not say that.
I am saying that tyres limit the braking distance. Larger brakes can handle more heat. STI is a faster car so it has more energy/heat to be dissipated with repeated braking.

"Big brake systems were not designed to stop your car sooner, but rather, stop it more efficiently and consistently. "
http://www.autos.com/aftermarket-par...ar-stop-faster

" A big brake kit will provide increased heat capacity, which means substantially more resistance to brake fade and caliper distortion with multiple stops from high speed"
http://www.wilwood.com/TechTip/TechFaqs.aspx

"If you want to decrease stopping distance you are far better served by buying stickier tyres......not with a properly designed big brake kit" @ 4.20 (my bold)

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QZLggq8AcY"]Know Brakes, Episode 4: Big Brake Kit FAQ - YouTube[/ame]

[churchx]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

So when STI upgrades the brakes of the car and changes the ABS trigger engagement levels, they don't know what they are doing.

Yes. They do that because it's relatively cheap way to get big brand name calipers for bling purpose. Those that do understand problems that doing so will bring, brush it off with "i only daily drive it, so i'm ok with reduced brake performance" and "i will try to fix it with using different compound pads in front/rear", those that don't - "but those brakes came from heavier car and they are by brembo, they MUST be better!!111!". But in reality due different brake bias braking distance will most probably be longer due one end locking much sooner and abs having to delock it sooner, while other end is still underbraked. Or with abs switched off making car very unsafe to emergency brake till full wheel lock.
About the only time one may benefit from different brake bias, if overall car balance is changed. For example big downforce by aero bits on one end only, suspension tuned to shift heavily grip to one end vs stock, staggered tire setups (also usually done for stupid bling reasons) and so on. And even then one should get brakes with different bias carefully, to fix what's changed, not to make it other way even worse.

As for "more braking force" .. just and only when with some very wide track slicks and powerful downforce from big aero stock brakes cannot lock wheels anymore, once should think of BBK for any other reasons but primarly heat management, and secondary for cheaper wearables & for reduced weight. And btw, you can increase also stock brake stopping with race brake pads with higher friction Mu. And you also can enhance their heat capability with adding brake cooling air ducts.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

No, I did not say that.
I am saying that tyres limit the braking distance. Larger brakes can handle more heat. STI is a faster car so it has more energy/heat to be dissipated with repeated braking.

"Big brake systems were not designed to stop your car sooner, but rather, stop it more efficiently and consistently. "
http://www.autos.com/aftermarket-par...ar-stop-faster

" A big brake kit will provide increased heat capacity, which means substantially more resistance to brake fade and caliper distortion with multiple stops from high speed"
http://www.wilwood.com/TechTip/TechFaqs.aspx

"If you want to decrease stopping distance you are far better served by buying stickier tyres......not with a properly designed big brake kit" @ 4.20 (my bold)

User said that we wants to upgrade wheels, tires and brakes. I also don't think he needs better brakes and he is fine for the moment with better pads for HPDE events. However, this is different from the general misconception that bigger brakes are just for heat management.

I didn't watch only the part of the video @4.20, but the entire video. The guy from Essex says that these kits are designed to match the torque output of the factory. Their disk is bigger, so they can use less force in the pistons to generate the same torque. Thus, they have same stopping brake distance and better heat management. This is just a specific design choice of the particular product. Not of how brakes work in general!

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by churchx

Yes. They do that because it's relatively cheap way to get big brand name calipers for bling purpose.

I don't think they have any reason to do it for bling purposes. Not these particular guys.

[Cartman]

I would just go with pads, lines and fluid to start, the stock system is pretty capable of stopping the car, if you start fading the stock system with race pads, then its time to upgrade to a BBK.

[churchx]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I don't think they have any reason to do it for bling purposes. Not these particular guys.

So if car & brake designers/manufacturers, tuning shops, very experienced racers say that it's wrong thing to do and will compromise braking .. of course some DIY-er claiming otherwise is the one to trust and there is no slightest doubt that they might be slightly less experienced/credible in that field then first camp, that whole brake industry is wrong and in conspiracy to shun such .. "upgrades"?
Everybody is free to do whatever one wants to his own car, hella-drop, insane cambers, cadillac & sti brake retrofits, staggered tires .. but i would love to not see such owners preaching to others that it's wise/right thing to do, that it is "improvement".
EDIT
Actually no, i would love to not see on public roads too, cars with compromised unpredictable braking, cars that low that gather long queues after them, when speed bumps need to be cleared and so on. MOT inspection shouldn't pass them as roadworthy to not endanger others.