Compound boost.

[JustAnEngineer]

A question for those that know more about cars than I. If one were to have a turbo feeding into pd blower. What kits do you think would be best to combine? Or if you think custom is the best option what kind of setup would you imagine?Just throwing darts at a board really.

I'm curious what turbo placement would work best? Front mount or something like Ptuning for heat reasons?

I know someone is thinking of using Cosworth for the huge heat exchangers and SBD which sounds cool.

[DustinS]

Originally Posted by JustAnEngineer

A question for those that know more about cars than I. If one were to have a turbo feeding into pd blower. What kits do you think would be best to combine? Or if you think custom is the best option what kind of setup would you imagine?Just throwing darts at a board really.

I'm curious what turbo placement would work best? Front mount or something like Ptuning for heat reasons?

I know someone is thinking of using Cosworth for the huge heat exchangers and SBD which sounds cool.

I don't think Turbo placement is going to be as critical as turbo sizing itself. So whichever turbo kit you prefer, keeping in mind the relatively large size of turbo needed.

The supercharger is going to be the first hurdle. The Heat exchangers weren't designed to flow air from both a turbo and supercharger. So there is a big chance twin charging may not be a viable option with the superchargers currently available on the market.

Depending on results, I know a very talented Machinist who already currently builds billet intake manifolds with built in A/W intercoolers built in for big power V8s. So having him help design a bigger intercooler into a manifold may not be out of the question. Then comes the question if it is a financially viable option, or worth the time to try and design a one off part. (which it most likely isn't)

[Matt@Cosworth]

Originally Posted by DustinS

I don't think Ecutek will have any issue tuning for a twin charged set-up. There aren't any super complicated things it has to deal with.

Edit: Torque Curve of a Twin Charge Evo T04Z leading to a Eaton 1320



Edit: Something that was brought up. Would/could the internal A/W intercoolers become a restriction? @Matt@Cosworth Any info on the limits of the Cosworth Intercoolers?

our intercooler system was sized for 400Bhp worth of flow and 40Kw of heat rejection with the LTR we supply and 15 ltrs/ min of water flow - additional capacity will be available if you can increase the water flow, perhaps run two bosch pumps in series?

measurements on our dyno showed there to be only about 1-2Kpa pressure drop over each core at 280Bhp so ostensibly they can flow at least double this power level before the core starts to become a restriction
I'd say our system is probably the one with the most capacity on the market until you start going completely custom made

and regarding heat capacity then you could also run a air/ air intercooler post turbo to get the charge air down again before coming into the charger
I'd also ensure that the water cooling is re-instated on the throttle body to help keep it alive
you may also want to consider a larger throttle body

[lupindub]

Even though OP is acting like a jerk, I still feel a bit of sympathy for him. Its quite clear OP is displaying some sort of ASD/Asperger like charachteristics and this is just the nature of the beast when you have asd and something you are very passionate about is being "discussed". For all the people who dont have asd/autism its hard to realise that for someone with asd, when somethig you are passionate about is being attacked its almost like you are attacking the person. They define who they are by there accomplishments.

That being said, regardless if you have asd or not, you are still responsible for your actions and I dont think lashing out at people will do any good. Also a little compassion wont hurt either.

[justatroll]

Ive had a couple more thoughts while following this thread:

When we talk about "compound" or "twin-charged" Forced Induction systems, it seems these two terms could lead to a LOT of variations in configurations.
You could run:
Single turbo into SC
SC into Turbo
Turbo into Turbo
Twin parallel Turbos

Are all these discussions favoring one particular version?
I assume the most common variation is Turbo into SC.

Another thing that has been bugging me: Isnt a Supercharger considered a "positive displacement" pump?
This means the volume through-put cannot vary at a discrete engine RPM.

Whereas the Turbo CAN flow varying amounts of volume at a discrete engine RPM.
So if you put the turbo in series with a Supercharger, arent you effectively regulating the turbo at all times by limiting the flow that goes through the SC?
Of course I understand that you can increase the pressure at the intake of the SC with the turbo to increase the density of intake charge to the SC to increase mass flow, but it still just bothers me a bit.
I'll bet you could even induce some feedback loops leading to nasty oscillations if you are not careful.

The Mr2-SC actually had the ability to free wheel the SC OR bypass it with a valve ...
Or how about twin turbos in the rear with the exhaust, long intercooler pipe back to the front to a supercharger
I am just waiting for F1 style Electric Turbo-Generators to trickle down to our level

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by Matt@Cosworth

our intercooler system was sized for 400Bhp worth of flow and 40Kw of heat rejection with the LTR we supply and 15 ltrs/ min of water flow - additional capacity will be available if you can increase the water flow, perhaps run two bosch pumps in series?

measurements on our dyno showed there to be only about 1-2Kpa pressure drop over each core at 280Bhp so ostensibly they can flow at least double this power level before the core starts to become a restriction
I'd say our system is probably the one with the most capacity on the market until you start going completely custom made

and regarding heat capacity then you could also run a air/ air intercooler post turbo to get the charge air down again before coming into the charger
I'd also ensure that the water cooling is re-instated on the throttle body to help keep it alive
you may also want to consider a larger throttle body

That's quite a bit of overkill for the Stage 2 kit. But good to know it has a high capacity for longevity and such.

[DustinS]

Originally Posted by Matt@Cosworth

our intercooler system was sized for 400Bhp worth of flow and 40Kw of heat rejection with the LTR we supply and 15 ltrs/ min of water flow - additional capacity will be available if you can increase the water flow, perhaps run two bosch pumps in series?

measurements on our dyno showed there to be only about 1-2Kpa pressure drop over each core at 280Bhp so ostensibly they can flow at least double this power level before the core starts to become a restriction
I'd say our system is probably the one with the most capacity on the market until you start going completely custom made

and regarding heat capacity then you could also run a air/ air intercooler post turbo to get the charge air down again before coming into the charger
I'd also ensure that the water cooling is re-instated on the throttle body to help keep it alive
you may also want to consider a larger throttle body

The Plan was to run a V-Mount Set-up with an intercooler post-turbo from the beginning. Though I may try just adding a pump and seeing where that lands us.

I have the major list of parts needed that I know of currently. Hoping to hear back on a price of everything come Monday. 3-4 Months worth of driving left in the car before it gets torn down to have the engine sent off.

I have been looking more and more at different loggers. Would be nice to log a few different Temperatures and Pressures not available coming from the ECU.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by justatroll

Ive had a couple more thoughts while following this thread:

When we talk about "compound" or "twin-charged" Forced Induction systems, it seems these two terms could lead to a LOT of variations in configurations.
You could run:
Single turbo into SC
SC into Turbo
Turbo into Turbo
Twin parallel Turbos

Are all these discussions favoring one particular version?
I assume the most common variation is Turbo into SC.

Another thing that has been bugging me: Isnt a Supercharger considered a "positive displacement" pump?
This means the volume through-put cannot vary at a discrete engine RPM.

Whereas the Turbo CAN flow varying amounts of volume at a discrete engine RPM.
So if you put the turbo in series with a Supercharger, arent you effectively regulating the turbo at all times by limiting the flow that goes through the SC?
Of course I understand that you can increase the pressure at the intake of the SC with the turbo to increase the density of intake charge to the SC to increase mass flow, but it still just bothers me a bit.
I'll bet you could even induce some feedback loops leading to nasty oscillations if you are not careful.

The Mr2-SC actually had the ability to free wheel the SC OR bypass it with a valve ...
Or how about twin turbos in the rear with the exhaust, long intercooler pipe back to the front to a supercharger
I am just waiting for F1 style Electric Turbo-Generators to trickle down to our level

No not all SCs are pos displacement. twin screw are and lobe type are. centrifugal type have linear boost gain with rpm but aren't pos displacement. Pos. displacement means it has a relatively fixed pressure ratio regardless of rpm.

the point of the discussion was to discuss all types and the potential merits of each but actually the most common is turbo into turbo in diesels.

they are also the most understood.

as I've stated the most common problem is not using a big enough primary.

The other problem is not realizing the way the two systems work together and realizing that the purpose is bettering the torque curve and understanding that proper system selection will ultimately limit top end power over what can be achieved through other means but that you can still make a faster/quicker car because of improved torque characteristics.

jaden

[JustAnEngineer]

Originally Posted by DustinS

I don't think Turbo placement is going to be as critical as turbo sizing itself. So whichever turbo kit you prefer, keeping in mind the relatively large size of turbo needed.

The supercharger is going to be the first hurdle. The Heat exchangers weren't designed to flow air from both a turbo and supercharger. So there is a big chance twin charging may not be a viable option with the superchargers currently available on the market.

Depending on results, I know a very talented Machinist who already currently builds billet intake manifolds with built in A/W intercoolers built in for big power V8s. So having him help design a bigger intercooler into a manifold may not be out of the question. Then comes the question if it is a financially viable option, or worth the time to try and design a one off part. (which it most likely isn't)

So you're thinking of only using a manifold heat exchanger? If so why not run it intake>turbo>intercooler>supercharger>manifold intercooler>engine? I imagine the piping would be a lot of "fun" to make but you'd get cooler temps and you might get away with using the cosworth.

Disclaimer:If there's some obvious reason not to do this then... oops.

[DustinS]

Originally Posted by JustAnEngineer

So you're thinking of only using a manifold heat exchanger? If so why not run it intake>turbo>intercooler>supercharger>manifold intercooler>engine? I imagine the piping would be a lot of "fun" to make but you'd get cooler temps and you might get away with using the cosworth.

Disclaimer:If there's some obvious reason not to do this then... oops.

"intake>turbo>intercooler>supercharger>manifol d intercooler>engine" this is what I planned on doing, but it will most likely require a V-Mount to maintain the most efficiency.

The problem I was referring to was the actual "airflow" limits of the internal manifold intercoolers. At some point they will become a restriction as they were not designed to flow the total amount of air from both a turbo and the supercharger. According to Matt (if I understood correctly) they should be okay to roughly 560bhp before they start becoming a restriction, which may pose an issue with the turbo planned. Though the car may not make that even with such a large turbo. Only testing will tell.

[Matt@Cosworth]

Hello

well usually flow restrictions / pressure drops, go up to the square of the flow so currently 280Bhp / 2 (as 2 intercoolers) = 140bhp = 2kpa of pressure drop

now any restriction is obviously bad but before it becomes a major issue you have to get up to 8-10Kpa to start getting appreciable losses in the tens of Bhp

interestingly enough I did measure 8Kpa of pressure drop over the standard throttle at 280Bhp though....... so might be worth looking into a larger body too

[DustinS]

Originally Posted by Matt@Cosworth

Hello

well usually flow restrictions / pressure drops, go up to the square of the flow so currently 280Bhp / 2 (as 2 intercoolers) = 140bhp = 2kpa of pressure drop

now any restriction is obviously bad but before it becomes a major issue you have to get up to 8-10Kpa to start getting appreciable losses in the tens of Bhp

interestingly enough I did measure 8Kpa of pressure drop over the standard throttle at 280Bhp though....... so might be worth looking into a larger body too

Found a company that machines the stock throttle body. $125. (Found them as they were suggested by another member on the forums)

Maxbore Scion FRS

[Matt@Cosworth]

that should help and pretty reasonable too

I know of another firm who's developing a 82mm body by the way

[DustinS]

Found this in the Full Blown thread. GTX35R @ 20psi. Should be an interesting comparison to how the supercharger helps.



I have been back and forth trying to figure out of the 35R is the turbo to go with, or if the GTX4088 might work a tad better. Though that is very large turbo (relatively)