which brake pads?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Matt Andrews

do you know the right part number for the rears? We got the proper fronts, but not rears. Anyone know what chassis shares our rear calipers?

1124. 2010+ lgt they list 05-09 on their site. I'm planning to call and correct them tomorrow.

[ill86]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

anyone have any opinions on Project Mu pads?

They are a fine choice.

[Jason@Nameless]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

I bake HPS pads before I'm out of my driveway.

I don't actually have a driveway, but I really dislike HPS pads for any use including DD. Hawk's track pads are fine though.

Equal pad types usually works well on Subarus, but they're usually pretty front biased.

- drew

I'm with Drew. I run HP+'s front and rear over Ate Premium 1 Rotors on my MkIV Golf 2.slo (it's effectively our shop truck, inverted monotube B&G coilovers, rear sway for the beam axle, a quick and easy short ram hot air intake and our 2.5" T304 catback exhaust w/ helmholtz resonator) and they are excellent. I'm not really feeling what the previous poster said about them having no bite when cold. Not sure if that was just his experience on the poopra or if there's something else going on with my Golf using the slotted rotors (Ate says they are wear slots, but they seem to hold up well to the aggressive HP+ pads). I have yet to get these things to fade and I absolutely slaughter this car on almost a daily basis. For the first 1-2 months they were pretty quiet, as they were installed with the purple ceramic goop (not the stuff they come with). Even then they'd do this little harmonic sound right as the car was approaching a stop. Now they're pretty much obnoxiously loud, but I wouldn't trade an annoyance for the stopping capacity they provide. These brakes have saved the lives of two deer and kept my car out of a ditch at least once. Also saved the rear bumper of a Jetta that pulled out in front of me the first day I had them on. I wasn't used to them and I absolutely slammed on the brakes so hard that the stuff sitting in my front passengers seat landed on the dashboard.

I love em. Wouldn't trade them for the world.

Jason

[ZDan]

Regarding the HP+, I can only compare them to Carbotech XP8 and XP10 (and OEM and HPS). Compared to the Carbotechs, the HP+ give WAY more initial bite and have a higher coefficient of friction. Some complain that they aren't as easy to modulate, but for me, I never had a problem and I found that I more consistently get to maximum braking sooner in the braking zone, as they really GRAB on initial application. With the Carbotechs, to get the same initial braking I would have to SLAM on the brakes, which I don't feel comfortable doing and probably can't do well consistently. This is purely driver preference and what works for the individual.

The HP+ don't need to warm up at all, full grip when cold. Big advantage on the street. XP8 and XP10 aren't too too bad in this regard, but definitely need some warm-up. This would make HP+ great street/track pads, but...

They dust a ton, and can squeal like mad. The Carbotechs dust a bit less, and it's easier to clean off. Carbotechs seem to make noise only until tracked, then after beaten on for a couple of track days, they go quiet. HP+ seem to continue to squeal some, and loudly.

HP+ have a lower operating temperature range compared with dedicated track pads, but I've never overheated them at the track on my bone-stock '01 S2000. That said, I won't even bother trying them on the 500+hp RX-7 even with big StopTech brakes. I went with XP10s all around for that car.

The HP+ last pretty well (~4 2-day track events) and aren't too hard on rotors, similar experience I've had with the XP8s and XP10s even. I am pretty easy on brakes though.

Different drivers, even in the same car turning similar lap times, can put a different amount of heat into brakes and experience different rates of brake wear, so what pads will work for a specific individual is *never* a foregone conclusion. IMO there is no one "right" brake pad for a given car, the best pad will be highly dependent on the driver.

HP+ gave performance characteristics I like a lot, and had no issues with track days in the S2000 or in the 240Z (street/track suspension, 250hp).

But NEVER be tempted to try HPS pads! Utter garbage. I've honestly never experienced anything like as awful, on the street or track.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I tried not to use ABS though. My street cars I drove on track only had ABS because they were still street cars. Race car has ABS removed so my habit is to not engage ABS on the street cars when on track either. Getting used to using ABS = failure when I switch to the race car lol

Me too. Which is why when I lost an ABS sensor on the S2k a few years back, I never fixed it. IMO, ABS (like TC and stability control) are a crutch for the weak! Maybe a bit of hyperbole there, but I do think they are all highly overrated, and though there are (or can be) real safety and performance benefits, I still don't like the idea of a non-sentient and blind computer interfering with my access to apply pressure to the brake calipers!

Under braking at high speed on track you've never locked the rears first?

Never. I've seen it happen and know that it is VERY unstable and often puts the car into the weeds (or something more solid). I have heard that some ABS cars including the s2000 have rear bias (which I think would be a HUGELY stupid thing to design in), but mine has always locked the fronts first.

Most of my track driving is in FWD cars where maybe it's more common to lock the rears more easily without the weight over them?

Could be, I don't really know. For sure I wouldn't be as hesitant to try different front/rear compounds on a fwd car. I honestly am baffled with the fixation on doing this on well-balanced rwd cars. I just don't think it's a good idea. For me, I'm sure it's not the way to go, at least for my cars.

[Racecomp Engineering]

If you like HP+, you'd love a Pagid Blue. That would kick a lot of ass on this car.

My understanding is that a lot of EBD/ABS/whatever systems will send more bias to the rear under light loads, but under heavy braking it's more mechanical in nature. So if you're locking up the rear under heavy braking at the track I'd wonder if the bias is built into the system via rotor diameter and piston sizes. But I have zero experience with the S2k so I'll stop talking.


- drew

[Jason@Nameless]

Do any of you track rats disable your ABS at the track? Obviously on the newer cars you almost can't shut any of the driving aids off....but is that something you'd find valuable for track days? I find it's pretty hard to lock up or engage the ABS on my MkIV without hitting a road hazard, but reading these posts it sounds like many of you lock em up regularly.

Jason

[Jason@Nameless]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Different drivers, even in the same car turning similar lap times, can put a different amount of heat into brakes and experience different rates of brake wear, so what pads will work for a specific individual is *never* a foregone conclusion. IMO there is no one "right" brake pad for a given car, the best pad will be highly dependent on the driver.

^Truth. Reading this and reflecting on it, it makes me want to go get an assortment of pads and check out some alternatives. I let one of the rally car drivers we were working with recently drive my Golf and he couldn't stand how grabby the HP+'s were (and it effected his driving style markedly), but I seem to be able to get them to work great.



....Mainly because I don't use them.

[Matt Andrews]

Originally Posted by Jason@Nameless

Do any of you track rats disable your ABS at the track? Obviously on the newer cars you almost can't shut any of the driving aids off....but is that something you'd find valuable for track days? I find it's pretty hard to lock up or engage the ABS on my MkIV without hitting a road hazard, but reading these posts it sounds like many of you lock em up regularly.

Jason

There are some cars that have crappy ABS. And some times changes in brake bias can screw up how well the systems work on some cars. But there are very few chassis that I would prefer to defeat the ABS then have it running in the background. The last time attack supra I drove, I got into the ABS intentionally from high speed as it was the fastest way to slow it down. S2k ABS is incredible. I know teams that are retrofitting S2K ABS to other cars. Most systems don't work as well as these two do, and they may upset the chassis when activated, but unless tires are free, and there are walls around, I'd prefer it there to bail me out...

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Jason@Nameless

Do any of you track rats disable your ABS at the track? Obviously on the newer cars you almost can't shut any of the driving aids off....but is that something you'd find valuable for track days? I find it's pretty hard to lock up or engage the ABS on my MkIV without hitting a road hazard, but reading these posts it sounds like many of you lock em up regularly.

Jason

On my DE cars, no. On the race car it is. Required by some groups and it makes sense to make sure the car travels in a predictable line once you go both feet in... Plus the race car is an older ABS system and weighed at least 20lbs..

[jamal]

If the BRZ abs is anything like other modern Subarus you won't want to disable ABS because the EBD proportioning is built into it. With ABS not working it defaults to a way forward bias. I was crew chief for a pretty fast time attack sti and one weekend we had an abs sensor get unplugged which made the car pretty much undriveable. The S2000 that was Matt's main competition for years also retained the factory ABS.

[sickmint79]

i was figuring carbotech xp8. i wrote carbotech and asked for the brz - street driven, all year around, occasional tracking with an intermediate driver - was advised x8 for front and rear. not sure of part number for the rear, else they'd be here before my car is... probably still will be heh!

[JadeGT86]

I'm getting some Project Mu BForce for Streeet/Daily and Club Racer for track day..

[SteveND]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Probably the Endless NS97. They are the best all around pads but are fookin expensive! BTW, these are the stock pads:


They call them "Sports Pads"

But they're made by Advics which is a joint effort of Aisin, Denso, and Sumitomo.

Hey, you seem to know this stuff. Do you know anything about alcon brake kits? They advertise as a high quality performance brakes and I want to check them out, but for now I'm just looking around gathering info. Would be great if you knew them and could tell me something about this company. For now I can only tell that they look really professional, but nothing more.