twins vs miata (AGAIN)

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Miata Club Edition comparison vs base FR-S (from a performance perspective).

Only fools fall for this comparison. Look, same as before, it takes a base $26k Miata + the club package + brembo/wheels ugprade which is $3.5k-6k worth of critical factory upgrades (limited slip diff, Bilstein Shocks, Brembo brakes, wheels, tires, aero) to beat to beat a base $26k FR-S around a track by .08 seconds. For the Miata, that's not impressive at all (nor surprising) and only serves to make the Miata look bad. I won't ignore that even if some will.

Not making any arguments, just stating facts. Averaged over those five courses, the ND Miata Club was 0.08 seconds per lap faster than the Twins.

That's the factual conclusion without any bias or making any arguments. Personally I'd say a 0.08 second difference is as even as you can get between two cars over five different road courses, but like I said take from that what you will.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Not making any arguments, just stating facts. Averaged over those five courses, the ND Miata Club was 0.08 seconds per lap faster than the Twins.

That's the factual conclusion without any bias or making any arguments. Personally I'd say a 0.08 second difference is as even as you can get between two cars over five different road courses, but like I said take from that what you will.

Sure, and what I take from all that is that A ~$26k Miata is slower than a ~$26k Twin.

As I noted from all those lap times is that you have add the Club package (which is $3.5k-$6k worth of performance mods) to a standard ND Miata to make it .08 seconds quicker around a track as standard 86.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by perryair

in the us, scion and subaru have sold almost 75,000 copies of the twins from mid 2012 till now. you have to go back to 2007 until now to hit 75,000 miata sales. and even with the new miata, the twins will likely outsell the miata this year. *and* the new 86 will probably get a bit more of toyota's marketing muscle behind it to invigorate sales a bit.

some people evidently are ignoring you and the journos. i guess i shouldnt feel so bad about it.

Ford has sold 79,000 Mustangs since last October.
Cheverolet sold 77,500 Camaro's in 2015.
Toyota sells more Camry's every 8 weeks than FR-S's total.

The 86 and Miata are minnows in the ocean of car sales. They are chump change projects for the few hundred thousand people who care out of the hundreds of millions of people shopping for cars.

For those that care about which is the better performer on paper the Miata wins, argue all you want, there's half a dozen comparos at this point and the Miata comes out on top time and time again. On paper it's not hard to understand why, it's lighter, has a shorter wheelbase, and an engine with a more accessible and easy to use powerband.

It's like comparing a sedan to a minivan: "well the sedan feels better to drive but you can fit more stuff in the minivan so the minivan wins this 'best family car comparison' test"

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

@strat61caster
As awesome as you are man, you're clearly a fanboy and that's totally ok. I'm a fanboy for Amy Fay. Please sell your car and buy a Miata, then immediately go here. You'll be a lot happier.

LMAO I have zero intention of trading my 86 for a Miata, I am precisely who this car was made for and am rather happy with it after 3 years of ownership and 50k miles in the driver's seat. I just have fewer delusions about what the car is than you or derriere.

[DAEMANO]

Lol fans

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Lol fans

Says the man who can't admit that car A is faster than car B without a paragraph of caveats and excuses.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Sure, and what I take from all that is that A ~$26k Miata is slower than a ~$26k Twin.

As I noted from all those lap times is that you have add the Club package (which is $3.5k-$6k worth of performance mods) to a standard ND Miata to make it .08 seconds quicker around a track as standard 86.

That's yet to be determined. I haven't seen any laptimes using a standard ND Miata, so you could be right but who knows.

I agree with you on pricing though. US MSRP of the cars:

- Club Miata - $29,435
- BRZ - $26,190
- FR-S - $26,100

As tested, the Club Miata is ~$3,300 more expensive. Not to mention the cost of adding a roll bar required at some tracks.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

That's yet to be determined. I haven't seen any laptimes using a standard ND Miata, so you could be right but who knows.

I agree with you on pricing though. US MSRP of the cars:

- Club Miata - $29,435
- BRZ - $26,190
- FR-S - $26,100

As tested, the Club Miata is ~$3,300 more expensive. Not to mention the cost of adding a roll bar required at some tracks.

Indeed. Also, the Club editions tested almost all came with the upgraded Brembo BBK/BBS wheel package for another ~$3400.

Now I know that it's not known how much lap times were reduced by this upgrade (if any). However lower total weight, lower unsprung weight, improved responsiveness/feedback/feel and especially better brake fade resistance all add to driver confidence that can lower measured lap times and also improve subjective impressions by journalists. This can't be ignored because Mazda chose to send test cars equipped with this performance equipment. Also obviously, people actually do buy this equipment in the aftermarket to improve their lap times.

So when people (not yourself Dark) make blanket statements like "The ND Miata is faster, it's been shown in tests" while choosing to ignore the test conditions they either expose themselves as either willfully ignorant or biased. Still like I said, it's ok to be a fanboy so long as a person recognizes it (once again not you Dark, but you know who I mean )

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Now I know that it's not known how much lap times were reduced by this upgrade (if any). However lower total weight, lower unsprung weight, improved responsiveness/feedback/feel and especially better brake fade resistance all add to driver confidence that can lower measured lap times and also improve subjective impressions by journalists. This can't be ignored because Mazda chose to send test cars equipped with this performance equipment. Also obviously, people actually do buy this equipment in the aftermarket to improve their lap times.

So when people (not yourself Dark) make blanket statements like "The ND Miata is faster, it's been shown in tests" while choosing to ignore the test conditions they either expose themselves as either willfully ignorant or biased. Still like I said, it's ok to be a fanboy so long as a person recognizes it (once again not you Dark, but you know who I mean )

The weight reduction in the brake and wheel package is 2.5 lbs per corner of unsprung mass for a total of 10 lbs of weight reduction.

Make of that what you will but for me it's totally unnoticeable and even the best driver in the world will struggle to turn that into anything more than a few hundredths of a second of speed. The magazines also all said that the package wasn't worth it and fade was still felt on the Miata.

And what's the point of trying to be coy when calling me out? Trying not to draw my attention? Don't want to read another one of my posts?

[DAEMANO]

^^ haha because it's fun

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Indeed. Also, the Club editions tested almost all came with the upgraded Brembo BBK/BBS wheel package for another ~$3400.

Now I know that it's not known how much lap times were reduced by this upgrade (if any). However lower total weight, lower unsprung weight, improved responsiveness/feedback/feel and especially better brake fade resistance all add to driver confidence that can lower measured lap times and also improve subjective impressions by journalists. This can't be ignored because Mazda chose to send test cars equipped with this performance equipment. Also obviously, people actually do buy this equipment in the aftermarket to improve their lap times.

So when people (not yourself Dark) make blanket statements like "The ND Miata is faster, it's been shown in tests" while choosing to ignore the test conditions they either expose themselves as either willfully ignorant or biased. Still like I said, it's ok to be a fanboy so long as a person recognizes it (once again not you Dark, but you know who I mean )

Haha I'm not even going to get involved in all that. I just wanted to drop in some facts since this debate seems to spark a lot of emotion in people.

In the end they're both great cars. There are very good reasons to buy either. Can't we just leave it at that? I'd love to add an ND Miata to my garage as a daily and do a full track conversion with the FR-S.

[perryair]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

LMAO I have zero intention of trading my 86 for a Miata, I am precisely who this car was made for and am rather happy with it after 3 years of ownership and 50k miles in the driver's seat. I just have fewer delusions about what the car is than you or derriere.

the difference between the two cars is negligible at best and not worthy of the media class coverage differential in any way. the only delusion going on is your self constructed strawmen, or perhaps the self loathing in your choice of current automobile.

but hey, thats your life and you just go on living it!

[Entroper]

I think you have a selective memory. Or are just being oversensitive.

The twins got rave reviews in 2012 when they were introduced. The ND is now the hot new thing. Maybe the 2017 Toyota 86 will be the hot new thing next year. Maybe it will beat the ND with lower gearing and no torque dip, and its own performance package with Brembos. Maybe they'll even put better tires on it.

Or maybe the Abarth 124 will overshadow both cars.

[totopo]

I think this whole argument is pretty silly. Competing for who is faster of the slowest sports car.

If you are looking at lap times/$$$ spent you are barking up the wrong tree.

wrx, v6 mustang, v6 camaro, ecoboost mustang will all blow both of these cars out of the water.

Isn't the point of the 86 to be a fun car? The miata never tried to boast about lap times. It was always about the driving experience. Why is it such a big deal that the 86 may or may not be faster than another car that's focused on fun?

And who cares if some reviewers like the miata better than the 86. If what they say impacts your enjoyment of the 86 so much, then go freaking buy a miata and just be a fanboy that flocks to whatever new car journalists rave about.

[2013GTRNate]

The new Miata is a really nice car. The BRZ and FR-S are as well buy what you want. Why degrade someones choice in car. We all vote with our wallet isn't that enough?