Why Processing is ESSENTIAL To Sound Quality

[paiceyfan]

Ideally, would you want a system that takes an input from the engine/ambient noise and feed that information in to tailor the output sound from the system to compensate in real-time?

[Chimera]

Originally Posted by paiceyfan

Ideally, would you want a system that takes an input from the engine/ambient noise and feed that information in to tailor the output sound from the system to compensate in real-time?

my boss has an audi s4, supposedly the bang-olufsen system it has does that, seemed like a neat idea to me. then again his s4 also has the engine noise speakers to make his car sound strong. we laugh about them.

[TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL]

Originally Posted by paiceyfan

Ideally, would you want a system that takes an input from the engine/ambient noise and feed that information in to tailor the output sound from the system to compensate in real-time?

Active noise cancellation can be good. This is one thing Bose is actually great at. The problem is, it has to tie in with the stereo. And as of now, there is no aftermarket support for it. For instance, on Chevys with active noise cancellation, you have to disable it in order to put an aftermarket set up in. This wouldn't be a problem if cars came with great stereos, but they dont. Not even the highest of high end cars come with great stereos.

A guy named Gary Summers was listening to a Audi with a Bang and Olufson system in it at this year's ces, it was their highest model stereo. Gary in the drivers seat, Audi rep in the passenger seat, Bang and Olufson engineers in the back. Gary played Tracey Chapman's Fast Car, and played with the "3d sound" switch a couple of times. Afterwards, the Audi rep asked him what he thought. He told the rep "I think Tracey Chapman would be horrified to hear what your system does to her music." After which the rep told him to get out of the car.

Later on Gary ran into the Bang and Olufson engineers, who immediately turned red. They apologized for the sound in the Audi, and said their hands had been tied when building the system, and that they were embarrassed of it. See, Gary has 4 Oscars and a Grammy for mixing sound, something the engineers knew, but the Audi rep didnt. Gary is now semi-retired and travels around to car audio shows in ca to demo his vehicle to people that have never heard truly nice systems before.


Another story from Gary. There is a guy named Andy Jones. He's one of the best speaker designers in the world. Lexus had him compete with a couple other brands to build a new system for their car line up. Andy's system literally brought the Lexus Japan president to tears. He said that he wanted Andy to design every stereo they sell. But he was told by the accountants that no one would buy it because no one knows who Andy Jones is. So, they stayed with Mark Levinson instead.

Anyways, end of my little rant. This is why I post what I post, because if more people aren't exposed to truly nice stereos, there will come a time where they fade off the face of the earth.

[Chimera]

So there's load of other places I could prob read this, but I'll for the sake of conversation.
a minidsp C has 8 outputs, this is enough to do a 3 way setup on the front, plus manage the rears. any issue with running a sub directly off the head units sub out if using an aftermarket head unit?

[TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL]

It wouldn't be enough to do 3 way, rears and sub. The processing always creates a time delay, I forget what it is with the c-dsp, I know the ms-8 had a 9ms delay. What would happen is the subwoofer would become nearly impossible to get in time with the rest of the speakers.

You can however daisy chain two c-dsps together.

For instance, Gary runs 15 active channels. 3 way front left and right, 3 way rear left and right 2 way center, and subwoofer. He is running 3 processors, two alpine h990's, and an alpine h800.

[Chimera]

So.. movies.. I actually haven't used a head unit to watch a movie in a long time, but is 9ms perceptible in the video/audio sync perspective?


so I'm not opposed to changing things up but it sounds like I would need 10 ch to accommodate the speakers I'm currently running (and a new amp to boot..)
right now I have 6.5, 3.5, and tweeter in the front. 3.5 in the rears, and sub.
the rears really are unnecessary but part of me really wants to use all the factory locations.

[Agent 86]

Speaking of processing...

Is it possible for DSP to be built into a recording? I'm trying to understand how this music was recorded to sound so spacious.

I have a couple iTunes recordings on my phone, that I play on my stock system and the sound is amazing. I'm using bluetooth playback, BTW. When I play this music, suddenly the interior volume of my car grows to the size of a much larger sound field.

The artist is Les Baxter. The particular tunes are "Sophisticated Savage" and "Barquita" are from the album Les Baxter and His Orchestra. The music was known as Exotica in the 1950's and 1960's. I listen to almost every genre of music (used to manage a Sam Goody back in the day), and was very pleased to find these selections.

If you're willing to give it a try, download either of these tunes and give it a listen on your stock system. The sound reproduces an openness similar to my 7.2 home theater (without the low frequencies).

I wonder if the way this music sounds in my car is similar to the way the OEM Audio + sound in our car.

[TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL]

Originally Posted by Chimera

So.. movies.. I actually haven't used a head unit to watch a movie in a long time, but is 9ms perceptible in the video/audio sync perspective?


so I'm not opposed to changing things up but it sounds like I would need 10 ch to accommodate the speakers I'm currently running (and a new amp to boot..)
right now I have 6.5, 3.5, and tweeter in the front. 3.5 in the rears, and sub.
the rears really are unnecessary but part of me really wants to use all the factory locations.

9ms can definitely be audible. Especially considering that the front stage is usually delayed compared to the sub, and you would be doing the opposite.

In fact, as little as 0.2ms is audible when talking about left to right balance. My last car had a ton of work put into equalizing the path length differences, and still needed the drivers side midrange delayed from the passenger side midrange by 0.8ms.

[TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL]

Originally Posted by Agent 86

Speaking of processing...

Is it possible for DSP to be built into a recording? I'm trying to understand how this music was recorded to sound so spacious.

I have a couple iTunes recordings on my phone, that I play on my stock system and the sound is amazing. I'm using bluetooth playback, BTW. When I play this music, suddenly the interior volume of my car grows to the size of a much larger sound field.

The artist is Les Baxter. The particular tunes are "Sophisticated Savage" and "Barquita" are from the album Les Baxter and His Orchestra. The music was known as Exotica in the 1950's and 1960's. I listen to almost every genre of music (used to manage a Sam Goody back in the day), and was very pleased to find these selections.

If you're willing to give it a try, download either of these tunes and give it a listen on your stock system. The sound reproduces an openness similar to my 7.2 home theater (without the low frequencies).

I wonder if the way this music sounds in my car is similar to the way the OEM Audio + sound in our car.

It wouldn't be considered dsp, but yes the sound your are experiencing is due to the recording itself. It generally means it was recorded very well. I'll try to check out those tracks tomorrow, and will post a list of my own.

What most people don't realize, is almost all mainstream music now days is recorded without concern for imaging or staging. I partly blame this for the decline in stereo quality. Why create good stereos when music is mastered poorly?

That said, dsp won't cause poorly mastered music to image better. It basically will maximize what's there. If no imaging cues are there, they still wont be. But if they are, it can maximize them. I've heard some cars where sound seems to be coming from the front of the hood and from beyond the a-pillars in width.

[sly]

Originally Posted by Agent 86

Speaking of processing...

Is it possible for DSP to be built into a recording?

You can actually run a pretty good car stereo with only a head unit and no EQ. I did this in my WRX before I built a dedicated system.


Using JRiver, you can add EQ, time delay, compression, convolution (linear phase FIR filters) and more. It records the corrected music onto a CD or digital media device. Then when your head unit plays it back, all of the correction has been done without having to purchase any equipment.


JRiver can actually re-master the music and add any EQ, etc. directly to the track. When you play the file, it is corrected to your car. Play the same file in someone else' car and it will sound pretty bad, though, as it's not been corrected to their car.


I already have a calibrated measurement microphone. If you don't have one, get one if you are going to be serious about sound. MiniDSP sells one for under $100 and so does Dayton Audio. Download Room Equalization Wizard (REW). It's free. Hook a laptop up to your AUX input on the head unit and take some measurements. EQ the system using REW. Export the corrected impulse file as a stereo .wav. Load this .wav into JRiver under dsp>convolution. JRiver will apply the correction to the music in real time. Then burn the music to a CD. Play it in your car and you will have an equalized system without having to actually install an EQ. There's a lot more JRiver can do. But these are the basics. Time alignment requires a loopback measurement and speaker phase linearization takes another program called rePhase. You can do all this through JRiver for a simple stereo setup. It's good to play around with until you get serious and build a fully DSP system.

[sly]

Originally Posted by Agent 86

I have a couple iTunes recordings on my phone, that I play on my stock system and the sound is amazing. I'm using bluetooth playback, BTW. When I play this music, suddenly the interior volume of my car grows to the size of a much larger sound field.

The artist is Les Baxter. The particular tunes are "Sophisticated Savage" and "Barquita" are from the album Les Baxter and His Orchestra. The music was known as Exotica in the 1950's and 1960's.

This is all in the way it was recorded. This was probably recorded live in an orchestra pit with several overhead microphones to both pick up the music and the sound of the music hall. The spaciousness you hear is the natural reverb that was picked up during recording. Modern music is mostly digital and is recorded in several sessions. The mix starts out with no effects which have to be added in later to make it sound more real. Without reverb, sound is flat and lifeless. Live recordings, especially orchestral recordings are loaded with natural ambient sounds that make it sound lifelike.

[sly]

Originally Posted by Chimera

So.. movies.. I actually haven't used a head unit to watch a movie in a long time, but is 9ms perceptible in the video/audio sync perspective?


so I'm not opposed to changing things up but it sounds like I would need 10 ch to accommodate the speakers I'm currently running (and a new amp to boot..)
right now I have 6.5, 3.5, and tweeter in the front. 3.5 in the rears, and sub.
the rears really are unnecessary but part of me really wants to use all the factory locations.

I hate quoting Wikipedia but it does link an article that explains that a 22ms or less time delay from the audio to video is generally considered acceptable for lip sync. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_...ynchronization


As long as you are not running a processing delay greater than this, you probably won't notice any lip sync issue. More importantly, the audio needs to be synched to itself. In other words, your left and right channels need to be properly time aligned. For example, you don't want your left tweeter or your right high-mid speaker to be off from each other. Any time delay between drivers will cause phasing problems which will cause some frequencies to drop out and will muddy the sound stage. Think of a projector out of focus...


As for the speakers you already have, if you are willing to do without the 3.5" rear speakers and just stick with a 4-way system, the C-DSP will work fine. If you want to include the rear speakers and make it an active 5-way system then you can add a miniDSP 2x4 to give you the extra channels you need. Just run one pair of channels on the C-DSP without any processing to the 2x4. Then use the 2x4 to add crossover and EQ those channels and output 4 more channels. 2 would go to the rears and one would go to the sub.

[TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL]

I completely forgot about JRiver.

And Chimera, I'm completely in agreement with Sly's suggestions.





As for those songs, these are the 4 main songs when I judge a Meca competition.

Christy Baron - Ain't No Sunshine

Listen for a stand up bass left of center. Her voice should be center, and slightly forward of the stand up bass.

Larry Coryell - Goodbye Porkpie Hat

The bass in this should not cause resonances in the car. There will be a guitar on the right and one on the left that come in later on, they are extremely detailed, you can hear the strings slapping against the fret board. The drums are behind the singer, and also very detailed.

Rebecca Pidgeon - Auld Lang Syne/Bring It On Back To Me

You should be able to picture her lips moving when she speaks, she should be centered. There are also two guitars that come in later, one on the left and one on the right. The Piano is left of center, and should be far back in the stage. A sax will come in mid way through, at the front of the stage in front of the piano.

The Persuations - Dock Of The Bay

The background singer will be hard right. The lead comes in left of center. Just after the 1:10 minute mark, he'll tap his foot a couple of times, the foot tap should not shake the rear view mirror. It should just barely be audible. Just before that you can hear him jingle some change in his pockets.

[Mim]

Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I completely forgot about JRiver.

And Chimera, I'm completely in agreement with Sly's suggestions.





As for those songs, these are the 4 main songs when I judge a Meca competition.

Christy Baron - Ain't No Sunshine

Listen for a stand up bass left of center. Her voice should be center, and slightly forward of the stand up bass.

Larry Coryell - Goodbye Porkpie Hat

The bass in this should not cause resonances in the car. There will be a guitar on the right and one on the left that come in later on, they are extremely detailed, you can hear the strings slapping against the fret board. The drums are behind the singer, and also very detailed.

Rebecca Pidgeon - Auld Lang Syne/Bring It On Back To Me

You should be able to picture her lips moving when she speaks, she should be centered. There are also two guitars that come in later, one on the left and one on the right. The Piano is left of center, and should be far back in the stage. A sax will come in mid way through, at the front of the stage in front of the piano.

The Persuations - Dock Of The Bay

The background singer will be hard right. The lead comes in left of center. Just after the 1:10 minute mark, he'll tap his foot a couple of times, the foot tap should not shake the rear view mirror. It should just barely be audible. Just before that you can hear him jingle some change in his pockets.

Fantastic post! Bought the tracks and will try listening to them in the car and on my 7.1 setup at home to get a feel for it.