a bit on supercharger drive systems and the Kraftwerks kit.

[SPCorBUST]

Originally Posted by DrWill

Does the JRSC kit offer larger blower options? One of the reasons we wen kraftwerks aside from the independent drive wad for the C-38 option.

Yes JR has a C38 option.

Bonus, its also CARB approved for people that care about/probably need it.

Bonus, its also compatible with their high boost pulley.

I am going that route, and I believe at that point I will be one of the few (if not the only) person on this forum to own both the KW and JR kits, and the only person to own both in the C38 form, as well as compare kit quality, driving experience, etc. side-by-side.

[SPCorBUST]

Originally Posted by Calum

Yes, they do. It took three years to develop a system with the same power curve as the C-30 option... But they have it. Obviously the C-38 has more potential, but with the pulley it comes with it, reportedly, makes the same power as the C-30 kit.

This is probably true.

On 91, my KW C38 kit also basically made the same hp as C30 folks. The gains I saw were when going to E85 with both kits.

The difference on 91 between C38 and C30 options on both the JR and KW kit, even tuned, seems to be only between 10-15 hp. This reflects my personal experience with the kits as well.

If you are going to stay on 91, you have no need to run the C38. There's just no benefit.

If you are going to run the C38 with a high boost pulley and E85 you sure as hell better build the motor.

I am not aware of a single C38 owner that has built the motor, either with the JR or KW kit... If anybody knows someone that has, please point me in their direction, pm me, or mention them here, as I have a few questions to ask about building for that setup.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by SPCorBUST

This is probably true.

On 91, my KW C38 kit also basically made the same hp as C30 folks. The gains I saw were when going to E85 with both kits.

The difference on 91 between C38 and C30 options on both the JR and KW kit, even tuned, seems to be only between 10-15 hp. This reflects my personal experience with the kits as well.

If you are going to stay on 91, you have no need to run the C38. There's just no benefit.

If you are going to run the C38 with a high boost pulley and E85 you sure as hell better build the motor.

I am not aware of a single C38 owner that has built the motor, either with the JR or KW kit... If anybody knows someone that has, please point me in their direction, pm me, or mention them here, as I have a few questions to ask about building for that setup.

VitTuned claims he can tune just fine with the C38 JRSC, pully, and e85 on a stock motor. I honestly don't see why, between spark and valve timing, a good tuner can't run such a setup on a stock motor plus injectors and maybe a fuel pump. I'm not saying Vit is a good tuner. I have no idea.

http://blog.vittuned.com/jackson-rac...ft-86-fr-sbrz/

[SPCorBUST]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

VitTuned claims he can tune just fine with the C38 JRSC, pully, and e85 on a stock motor. I honestly don't see why, between spark and valve timing, a good tuner can't run such a setup on a stock motor plus injectors and maybe a fuel pump. I'm not saying Vit is a good tuner. I have no idea.

http://blog.vittuned.com/jackson-rac...ft-86-fr-sbrz/

When I was first tuned with a C38 on E85 (with no high boost pulley), the baseline was lower and the results higher, than those in the post.

With results like those, I think you are still simply flirting with, rather than actively courting, a blown motor.

I believe higher results from other tuners would more accurately reflect the setup's potential.

Well I’m going to have to let the experts down on this one… but this “high boost” pulley is perfectly safe to run on pump gas (91, 92 or 93 octane). We actually picked up a solid amount of power through basically the whole curve — as much as 25whp over the low boost pulley @ 7000 rpm — making just shy of 290whp. And yes, it’s perfectly safe to drive. You don’t “need” a built motor to run this power level — or E85 to make it “safe” (but we’ll get to that later..).

If I remember right, hp wasn't the basis of the HBP concerns, it was timing concerns up top and performance for your dollar. You'd need another tune for a very small gain on 91, and to get the real benefit you'd want E85. I don't think anyone was saying that a 10whp difference, bumping someone to ~290whp on 91 warranted a built motor. That seems to be what he's positing, though. (Just a note, 10whp was the difference I saw when tuning from C30 standard pulley to the high boost pulley, and it seems to be the same difference in the C30 plotted lines from his charts)

Seems he hit ~335whp with the C38, HBP, and E85. With another tuner, you'd be able to pick up more of the power that's still left on the table, and be closer to 400whp mark. This isn't even including some of the higher-performing headers on the market, e.g. Ace. At that point, I think more people are in agreement that a blown motor may only be a matter of time.

[FirestormFRS]

Originally Posted by FRSBRZGT86FAN

Did you have it professionally installed?

No. The instructions are simple and I have years of automotive experience. I think a little more patience and diligence for the DIY crowd would make a large number of problems go away.

[DrWill]

Originally Posted by SPCorBUST

This is probably true.

On 91, my KW C38 kit also basically made the same hp as C30 folks. The gains I saw were when going to E85 with both kits.

The difference on 91 between C38 and C30 options on both the JR and KW kit, even tuned, seems to be only between 10-15 hp. This reflects my personal experience with the kits as well.

If you are going to stay on 91, you have no need to run the C38. There's just no benefit.

If you are going to run the C38 with a high boost pulley and E85 you sure as hell better build the motor.

I am not aware of a single C38 owner that has built the motor, either with the JR or KW kit... If anybody knows someone that has, please point me in their direction, pm me, or mention them here, as I have a few questions to ask about building for that setup.

We have been running the C38 on the high boost pulley and E85 on the stock motor for going on 2 years with no issues. As long as you switch to a higher quality her weight oil run an oil cooler fuel pump and injectors and your tuner knows what they are doing you will be fine. On the high boost pulley the C38 makes about 14-15 psi. Even on the smallest pulley (85mm) it will only push about 16-17. 17 psi on E85 is fine as long as you have a solid tune and appropriate supporting mods. I know plenty of people pushing more than 17 psi out of turbos on the stock block with e85 without issue.

[Northwest86]

This has got to be the greatest advertisement for Jackson Racing I've ever seen.

[DrWill]

Originally Posted by SPCorBUST

When I was first tuned with a C38 on E85 (with no high boost pulley), the baseline was lower and the results higher, than those in the post.

With results like those, I think you are still simply flirting with, rather than actively courting, a blown motor.

I believe higher results from other tuners would more accurately reflect the setup's potential.



If I remember right, hp wasn't the basis of the HBP concerns, it was timing concerns up top and performance for your dollar. You'd need another tune for a very small gain on 91, and to get the real benefit you'd want E85. I don't think anyone was saying that a 10whp difference, bumping someone to ~290whp on 91 warranted a built motor. That seems to be what he's positing, though. (Just a note, 10whp was the difference I saw when tuning from C30 standard pulley to the high boost pulley, and it seems to be the same difference in the C30 plotted lines from his charts)

Seems he hit ~335whp with the C38, HBP, and E85. With another tuner, you'd be able to pick up more of the power that's still left on the table, and be closer to 400whp mark. This isn't even including some of the higher-performing headers on the market, e.g. Ace. At that point, I think more people are in agreement that a blown motor may only be a matter of time.

When we did our 93 pump gass dyno on the high boost setup prior to the revision we made 315. We ran into he same issue of it not wanting to take timing up top so our tuner dialed it down to 305. When we did our E85 dyno on the stadard pulley making 12 psi after the revision we made 349. If the person in the post made under 340 with the high boost pulley and E85 he definitely left power on the table. We changed over to the high boost pulley (90mm) and brought the boost up to about 14.5 we haven't had it on the dyno sense then but based on the math and how it feels we estimate it's at around 375 or so. Based on the math he smallest high boost pulley (85mm) should put it at between 400 and 420. A lot of it does depend on exhaust we have a custom EL with 3" exit and 3" all the way back. We have been running it on this configuration for about a year with no issues. Even with the 85 mm pulley putting it up to 16-17 psi it should be safe on E85. I know people who have pushed 18-19 psi one E85 with turbo setups making as much as 475 at the wheels who beat the shit out of their cars and never had issues. As long as you have the proper supporting mods and your tuner knows what he is doing the stock block can take a lot.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

VitTuned claims he can tune just fine with the C38 JRSC, pully, and e85 on a stock motor. I honestly don't see why, between spark and valve timing, a good tuner can't run such a setup on a stock motor plus injectors and maybe a fuel pump. I'm not saying Vit is a good tuner. I have no idea.

http://blog.vittuned.com/jackson-rac...ft-86-fr-sbrz/

Oh it's possible, but it won't last forever.

If you're want to use a scalpel to cut through a block of wood, you can, but the scalpel won't last anywhere near as long as making precision cuts through soft materials.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by SPCorBUST

This is probably true.

On 91, my KW C38 kit also basically made the same hp as C30 folks. The gains I saw were when going to E85 with both kits.

The difference on 91 between C38 and C30 options on both the JR and KW kit, even tuned, seems to be only between 10-15 hp. This reflects my personal experience with the kits as well.

If you are going to stay on 91, you have no need to run the C38. There's just no benefit.

If you are going to run the C38 with a high boost pulley and E85 you sure as hell better build the motor.

I am not aware of a single C38 owner that has built the motor, either with the JR or KW kit... If anybody knows someone that has, please point me in their direction, pm me, or mention them here, as I have a few questions to ask about building for that setup.

We do. I don't think they'll publicly disclose their builds, as these are all competition cars, but we can discuss your budget and goals, and see if we can make your dreams possible.

[VitViper]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

VitTuned claims he can tune just fine with the C38 JRSC, pully, and e85 on a stock motor. I honestly don't see why, between spark and valve timing, a good tuner can't run such a setup on a stock motor plus injectors and maybe a fuel pump. I'm not saying Vit is a good tuner. I have no idea.

http://blog.vittuned.com/jackson-rac...ft-86-fr-sbrz/

The C38 blower is working great for the owner of the car -- which is still up and kicking, no problems. We actually have some exhaust upgrades in store for it and will do a bit of testing to see if they bring out a bit more power over his current "custom" header setup he is running.

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Oh it's possible, but it won't last forever.

If you're want to use a scalpel to cut through a block of wood, you can, but the scalpel won't last anywhere near as long as making precision cuts through soft materials.

Agreed. You can tune a stock block on E85 and get well over 400, even 500 whp with not a single trace of knock. Does that mean the internals aren't experiencing a massive increase in stress and wear/tear? Of course not, and it would be naive to believe that the torture you're putting a stock engine through at that power level is the same as a bone stock car.

-Zach
Delicious Tuning