Preferred downshifting method?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by FRSek

As for the heal-toe. I find the gas pedal on this car too pushed in and generally not incredibly responsive (drive by wire) to do it well unless braking hard.

As long as you've mentioned it, the ECU resists revving the engine while the brake is applied. If you're going to heel-toe, do the pedal dance first. The difference is night and day. It just becomes a regular gas pedal - no interference.

[Luftwaffel]

*puts on flame suit*

I believe maybe one out of every thousand people that claim they double clutch on a daily basis.

We invented synchros for a reason, lol. This transmission is so cheap I don't give a shit if I blow one out.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

I like my stick on the street because when I'm cruising up to the on/off ramps I can double clutch rev match the lowest gear for my cruising speed then heel toe down a gear and enjoy the corner and be in the power band to accelerate out. I guess that is frowned upon and considering aggressive on the street but that's why I bought a manual sports car

All day - erry day

[ZionsWrath]

Originally Posted by Luftwaffel

*puts on flame suit*

I believe maybe one out of every thousand people that claim they double clutch on a daily basis.

We invented synchros for a reason, lol. This transmission is so cheap I don't give a shit if I blow one out.

PM when you are in NY we can go for a drive.

I don't do it because I think I'm so good at driving. I started doing it because I needed more time to think out my rev match. For 6-4 or 6-3 downshifts. Funny enough I never double clutch on the track lol

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by ButeraFRS

I wouldn't use downshifting as your main method for slowing down or braking for the reason you mentioned but also because it's cheaper to replace brake pads than it is to replace a clutch.

If you're wearing out your clutch, you're doing it wrong. The whole point of rev matching is that you DON'T wear out your clutch when downshifting.

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Thought about this last night. It does take quite a bit of practice. Nothing wrong with practicing.

This quote was in regard to heel/toe.

When I was 17 and 18 years old, I played alto sax in an 18-piece professional jazz orchestra. At the time I was learning to master overtones, extremely high notes beyond what the instrument was designed for. As we were warming up in a ballroom prior to a big event, I started running through piercingly high scales.

The first tenor leaned over to me and said, "This probably isn't the right venue for practicing overtones."

He was absolutely right. There are places for extreme techniques and places where you shouldn't do them.

I use rev matching on just about every drive. I don't find many opportunities to use heel/toe on the street, however, and I fear these discussions give some of the inexperienced drivers on this board the idea that they should be practicing it when turning into the local Costco parking lot. Generally speaking, public roads are a place you shouldn't be practicing extreme techniques.

Especially overtones. Don't practice overtone scales on your saxophone while driving.

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

I don't do it because I think I'm so good at driving. I started doing it because I needed more time to think out my rev match.

If you need time to think out your rev match, you're overthinking your rev match.

Originally Posted by Luftwaffel

I believe maybe one out of every thousand people that claim they double clutch on a daily basis.

We invented synchros for a reason, lol. This transmission is so cheap I don't give a shit if I blow one out.

All this talk of double clutching made me want to see this again. Sound mixing by the legendary Richard Portman, who made sure McQueen's double clutching made it into the final sound mix (around 1:10 in the 2nd video). I first watched this movie as a teenager and went right out and tried (failed) to duplicate the double clutching in my Triumph.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31JgMAHVeg0"]Bullitt - The Chase (part 1) - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk9SZbrh_Tg"]Bullitt - The Chase (Part 2) - YouTube[/ame]

[ZionsWrath]

You're not wrong. Just a habit I developed now I do it all the time.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Luftwaffel

*puts on flame suit*

I believe maybe one out of every thousand people that claim they double clutch on a daily basis.

We invented synchros for a reason, lol. This transmission is so cheap I don't give a shit if I blow one out.

Amen!


I do enjoy the thought process of many when it comes to downshifting though. Almost every argument against it involves "but it is hard on the engine, transmission drive train, etc to jolt it like that". It seems like everybody thinks you need to downshift and slam the car to red line. When downshifting to use engine braking I will rarely even end up at 3 or 4K after the shift. There are no jolts, stresses or any other abnormal conditions to any components. It just feels like an auto downshifting on it's own.


I love reading:
"OH I redline 100 times a day"
"This car would be much better with 350HP"
"Turbo is required for this car"
"I love kicking that rear around ever single corner"
"Need at least 20 degrees camber to be right"
"Wide sticky tires are a must if you really drive this car right"
"Got me a header and a tune from Bubba's Back Ally tuning"


"WHAT YOU DOWNSHIFT TO BRAKE? YOU ARE DESTORYING YOUR CAR YOU MORON. ROTORS CHEAPER THAN ENGINES FOOL"

Originally Posted by extrashaky

If you're wearing out your clutch, you're doing it wrong. The whole point of rev matching is that you DON'T wear out your

Any time you use the clutch you are, by definition, wearing it just like any time you use the brakes you wear them and anytime you start up the engine you wear it.

To what degree it's worn down is up to the driver. Hence why the daily driver who doesnt rev past 6k is most likely going to have lesswear on their parts in comparison to the weekend trackday person. Regardless, the more you needlessly use the clutch to brake when you don't have to, the more you subject yourself to replacing the clutch quicker than replacing your brakes.

I've seen someone do this on a stage 2 clutch for an evo...


Not quite sure why other users on this forum are making it sound like this idea is off or something, it's standard physics and common sense, really.
Sent from my SM-G530W using Tapatalk

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Especially overtones. Don't practice overtone scales on your saxophone while driving.

Apparently this is a fairly common practice:

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by ButeraFRS

Any time you use the clutch you are, by definition, wearing it just like any time you use the brakes you wear them and anytime you start up the engine you wear it.

Exactly how much life do you think is taken off the clutch by using engine braking?

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FEEaGE3xIU"]Driver Plays Saxophone on Freeway while driving.MOV - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzaYJM3ECeE"]Beyond texting and driving - YouTube[/ame]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Exactly how much life do you think is taken off the clutch by using engine braking?

That depends on like I said A) The driver and whether or not they are rev-matching correctly or if they aren't rev matching at all and just straight downshifting into an engine brake and B) How frequently it is done and at what RPM it is predominately done at.

On a personal and subjective level, I noticed the engine braking on this car is not anything special compared to other cars I've driven and hence my reasoning for straying away from it.

That said, the only time I ever revmatch is on spirited drives where I want to go into a corner at a specific RPM so I can come faster out rather than lug the engine.

[justatroll]

Originally Posted by raven1231

I just jam the shifter into gear sometimes not even using the clutch.

I eventually end up saying this on almost every thread about "how to drive MT".
This car is very easy to shift with no clutch. I have demonstrated this to each of my children (and grand kids) when teaching them to drive MT.

No it is NOT something you want to do frequently but it IS a good tool to learn the RPM engagement points.
I can shift from 1st up to 6th and 6th back down to 2nd without ever touching the clutch and without grinding a gear.
If you can do that, you are rev matching properly.

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

As long as you've mentioned it, the ECU resists revving the engine while the brake is applied. If you're going to heel-toe, do the pedal dance first. The difference is night and day. It just becomes a regular gas pedal - no interference.

No it does not. I engine brake & heel/toe all the time and have never noticed lack of response.

I also practice certain corners to/from work every day to see if I can negotiate the turn with no brakes at all (lots of engine braking). I'll even bet that some drivers behind me think that my brake lights are out.


I installed the heel/toe gas pedal, and now I find myself downshifting & heel toeing all the time, it is automatic.
I first learned with my Porsche 914 in college because it would not idle. If you didn't heel toe to keep the revs up, it would stall every time coming to a stop.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by ButeraFRS

That depends on like I said A) The driver and whether or not they are rev-matching correctly or if they aren't rev matching at all and just straight downshifting into an engine brake and B) How frequently it is done and at what RPM it is predominately done at.

And this right here is the problem. Inevitably when the subject of engine braking comes up, somebody always posts that comment about brakes being cheaper than clutches/engines/transmissions/tires/shift knobs/air filters/new stereos/pine-scented air fresheners/whatever. Yet nobody ever provides any actual evidence that it increases wear in any measurable or quantifiable amount. The reverse torque on the car is minor compared to the torque applied during hard forward acceleration, and the clutch shouldn't see much wear at all if the revs are matched.

Even if you start messing with hypotheticals, it still doesn't make much sense. If it cut clutch life in half, we would have seen some sort of evidence of that in all the years people have been doing it. So any reduction has to be less than half. Is it 10%? 20%? If the clutch would normally last 150K miles, and now it will last 135K instead, is that really a difference worth worrying about that you have to replace the clutch in year 6 of ownership instead of year 7? At that point how would you even be sure the clutch wear was caused by this and not just bad driving technique all around?

I think it's funny that people talk on this board about doing all sorts of things that stress the fuck out of this car, yet there's always somebody worried about minor, unsubstantiated wear from engine braking.

Originally Posted by ButeraFRS

On a personal and subjective level, I noticed the engine braking on this car is not anything special compared to other cars I've driven and hence my reasoning for straying away from it.

Actually, you undermine your own argument with that comment. My old Triumph with the inline 6 could put your face into the steering wheel with a downshift. The little 4 cylinder in the twins has higher compression but revs higher and doesn't give nearly the braking power. That means there's less shock from engine braking on the entire system. It's almost as if the car were designed with this type of driving in mind.