Scion prices really non-negotiable?

[Djratrap]

Originally Posted by MrDinkleman

I wish the Pure Price policy extended to the Finance Guy somehow. I wasted more time with him than with salesmen and their managers before I started buying online (which eliminates the Finance Guy in the transaction)...

Ah the finance guy...aka the usually attractive and tan snake oil salesman.

[MrDinkleman]

Originally Posted by Djratrap

Ah the finance guy...aka the usually attractive and tan snake oil salesman.

LOL! How true, how true. The last Finance Guy I had to deal with had perfect hair, thin, and all kinds of bling... LOL
Funnier thing is, at the end, we were both pissed off at each other and not hiding our feelings... LOL

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by PhantomX

Here we go again.

I got a good chuckle about the current order of thread here.
The one above this has people complaining about how much the car depreciates while this one is wanting to get them cheaper in the first place.
Every time a new one is discounted that price goes into the KBB and other such computers and knock the used value a little lower. People either don't realize that or just think everybody is ripping them off.
It is just not realistic to expect huge discounts on new cars and have them stay high in resale value as used.


.

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by MrDinkleman

I wish the Pure Price policy extended to the Finance Guy somehow. I wasted more time with him than with salesmen and their managers before I started buying online (which eliminates the Finance Guy in the transaction)...

Originally Posted by Djratrap

Ah the finance guy...aka the usually attractive and tan snake oil salesman.

Originally Posted by MrDinkleman

LOL! How true, how true. The last Finance Guy I had to deal with had perfect hair, thin, and all kinds of bling... LOL
Funnier thing is, at the end, we were both pissed off at each other and not hiding our feelings... LOL

Actually mine was a stuck up feminist (no offense to women) it's the first sports car I've bought all on my own so I did alot of research on these things and she was hilariously condescending asking if I was sure I was getting a 2 seater sports car . She told the fakest story of how she's had 3 people with my car "blow" there engines and thanked her for suggesting the extended warranty with the highest service boost package, complete utter bullshit and she gave serious attitude after my response as I wasn't interested in it. She then proceeded to say you have to worry about camaros trying to race you in the stop lights with "this" car and that they don't cover anything that may happen with that, and my response was "no shit". If you can avoid them do so, I understand they have a job to do but in all of my dealings with them they've been totally overzealous salesmen I think the only people that fall for them are old people or families that don't know better.

[Datcrazyeric]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I got a good chuckle about the current order of thread here.
The one above this has people complaining about how much the car depreciates while this one is wanting to get them cheaper in the first place.
Every time a new one is discounted that price goes into the KBB and other such computers and knock the used value a little lower. People either don't realize that or just think everybody is ripping them off.
It is just not realistic to expect huge discounts on new cars and have them stay high in resale value as used.


.

The amount of people who think new cars have crazy amount of mark up is stupid high lately, Scions barely have any type of mark-up and it doesn't help a lot of dealerships advertise the vehicle at a impossible price and pisses off customers when they arrive at the dealership.

People today have a beer budget with champagne taste.

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by Datcrazyeric

The amount of people who think new cars have crazy amount of mark up is stupid high lately, Scions barely have any type of mark-up and it doesn't help a lot of dealerships advertise the vehicle at a impossible price and pisses off customers when they arrive at the dealership.

People today have a beer budget with champagne taste.

I think it's always been like that....

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Datcrazyeric

The amount of people who think new cars have crazy amount of mark up is stupid high lately, Scions barely have any type of mark-up and it doesn't help a lot of dealerships advertise the vehicle at a impossible price and pisses off customers when they arrive at the dealership.

People today have a beer budget with champagne taste.

Depends on region, my local dealers cram a ton of markup on top of msrp with crap options like overpriced floor mats and clear bras. I think there were a few in the first month's of release that sold for over $40k.

I just looked and there are dealers asking $29k+ for FRS near me, not even special editions or anything.

I agree that msrp is fairly decent for this car but $3k+ on top? No way.

[iNcontroL]

Here are a few things you should know.

First, the price is negotiable depending on when you go to the dealership and how many of that model they have in stock. They may be required by corporate policy like tcoat said to sell all cars of a specific model/color at the same price but that doesn't mean much to them when they only have one more left, right?

It's also a lot easier to negotiate on a manual than a automatic. You can also add try to get them to add on aftermarket like the TRD Exhaust, Quickshift, or wheels. Your trade in is also an easy way to bring down the price for the car, you can even call around and have dealerships compete on how much they'll pay for your old car.

Use Truecar, easy way to find a base price to start negotiating from. Also if you have a local credit union see if they have any car buying services, one of the credit unions I worked for had a deal with multiple dealerships which would get our members discounts if they went through our site.

Look at the sticker and make sure they didn't add on any bs charges like Nitrogen for tires or "Door Guards" which was basically just a half inch wide strip of clear bra on the edges of the doors. When I went to buy my monogram they marked it up $3000 just because of various "added features" I told them to either give them to me for free or take them off otherwise I'd walk.

Finally as a banker my advice to you is when walking into the door to give them the assumption you'll be paying with cash. Under no circumstance should you mention financing or asking how much monthly payments will be until you have the final price, taxes included. What a lot of people don't know is that there's no such thing as 0% financing. Dealerships make commission based on how high of a rate they can lock you in. They'll get more money locking you in a rate of 3.75 for 72 months than 2.99 for 72 months. Some dealerships have even been known to run your application and tell you you've been approved for 3.99% APR even if your credit score could get you a 2.99% because they make more on the backend, so it's almost always better to get prequalified at a bank or better yet a credit union. And if a dealership is offering 0%? They add the money you'd save on interest to the final price of the car because they'll have to pay the bank a fee in order to provide that incentive, and they sure as hell aren't gonna pay that. There's no such thing as 0%, banks want to make money... This goes for Toyota Financial Services as well.

Only talk about financing options once you have the final price.

I managed to negotiate my way from 32K to 25K OTD on a new Whiteout Monogram. All taxes and fees included.

[PhantomX]

Originally Posted by iNcontroL

First, the price is negotiable depending on when you go to the dealership and how many of that model they have in stock. They may be required by corporate policy like tcoat said to sell all cars of a specific model/color at the same price but that doesn't mean much to them when they only have one more left, right?

Negative. Just because it's the only one left doesn't mean there won't be more coming. In my dealership, we leave all but one automatic and one manual of each Scion model at port so that the ones at port can be customized to the buyer's requirements. Now, there are certain special circumstances where the dealer will drop the price, such as it's been on the lot for nearly a year or more, but it's not a matter of negotiating, but timing in the buyer's part.

Originally Posted by iNcontroL

It's also a lot easier to negotiate on a manual than a automatic. You can also add try to get them to add on aftermarket like the TRD Exhaust, Quickshift, or wheels. Your trade in is also an easy way to bring down the price for the car, you can even call around and have dealerships compete on how much they'll pay for your old car.

Again, untrue. What would the vehicle being manual or automatic cheapen the worth of the vehicle? Or is it just your viewpoint of the vehicle? If you think manual is worthless compared to an automatic, then why bother trying to get a manual?

As for your trade-in, it all depends on the dealership, although there is also a strict rule of one chance pricing. It's part of the Pure Pricing policy. Full market pricing is what you're supposed to be given in order to meet the "no haggle, no hassle" motto.

Originally Posted by iNcontroL

Use Truecar, easy way to find a base price to start negotiating from. Also if you have a local credit union see if they have any car buying services, one of the credit unions I worked for had a deal with multiple dealerships which would get our members discounts if they went through our site.

I love how people think TrueCar or KBB or any other website dictates how dealerships, let alone Scion, should price their vehicles. Since people think they're the experts at how cars should be priced, then why don't they buy from them? Oh, that's right... They're not the dealerships or the manufacturers... Don't like how Pure Price works and go through the stress of haggling for the price you feel you should pay for the car? Get a BRZ.

Originally Posted by iNcontroL

Look at the sticker and make sure they didn't add on any bs charges like Nitrogen for tires or "Door Guards" which was basically just a half inch wide strip of clear bra on the edges of the doors. When I went to buy my monogram they marked it up $3000 just because of various "added features" I told them to either give them to me for free or take them off otherwise I'd walk.

Again, Pure Pricing requires dealerships to show anything they add to their Scions with the prices, aftermarket or not. That way, you get to make the informed decision whether or not that's the vehicle you want or custom order one without it.

As for your experience, I can only imagine that the dealership you went through outright violated the Scion Pure Process and Pure Pricing policy, which could (and still can if they're audited) get their ability to sell that particular brand taken away from them. OR, the Monogram Series you purchased was what dealerships call an "old age unit." For example, we have some 2013 and 2014 Scion iQs that we are selling for $5,000-$6,000 below their MSRP just so we can get rid of them. Because they're 1-2 years old, Scion is lenient enough to allow us to do this.

Originally Posted by iNcontroL

Finally as a banker my advice to you is when walking into the door to give them the assumption you'll be paying with cash. Under no circumstance should you mention financing or asking how much monthly payments will be until you have the final price, taxes included. What a lot of people don't know is that there's no such thing as 0% financing. Dealerships make commission based on how high of a rate they can lock you in. They'll get more money locking you in a rate of 3.75 for 72 months than 2.99 for 72 months. Some dealerships have even been known to run your application and tell you you've been approved for 3.99% APR even if your credit score could get you a 2.99% because they make more on the backend, so it's almost always better to get prequalified at a bank or better yet a credit union. And if a dealership is offering 0%? They add the money you'd save on interest to the final price of the car because they'll have to pay the bank a fee in order to provide that incentive, and they sure as hell aren't gonna pay that. There's no such thing as 0%, banks want to make money... This goes for Toyota Financial Services as well.

Only talk about financing options once you have the final price.

I managed to negotiate my way from 32K to 25K OTD on a new Whiteout Monogram. All taxes and fees included.

This is the best one yet. Whether you pay cash or finance, the Scion Pure Process requires dealerships to be transparent with EVERYTHING, including the rate your credit score qualifies you for through TFS. (Your local lenders may have better rates.) Everything has to be upfront with the Scion buying process. This is how the Scion Pure Process came to be. People asked for an easier, low (to no) stress purchase process from start to finish, so Scion came up with the foundations of openness, flexibility and personalization. If dealerships don't follow those three things, they receive dire repercussions. If buyers don't believe that that's how it is and STILL want to play the haggle game, then Scion is not for them.

I'm sure there's more to the circumstance that happened that you're not aware of during your purchase, or the dealership you dealt with really didn't care about losing their ability to sell Scions, which would be sad to hear because that's the very root of why people whine that Scion is a "dying brand."

[Datcrazyeric]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Depends on region, my local dealers cram a ton of markup on top of msrp with crap options like overpriced floor mats and clear bras. I think there were a few in the first month's of release that sold for over $40k.

I just looked and there are dealers asking $29k+ for FRS near me, not even special editions or anything.

I agree that msrp is fairly decent for this car but $3k+ on top? No way.

I agree also, Team Toyota comes to mind (I worked there and they tried to sell me the FR-S +1k over msrp) and that makes things so much harder. I'm a honest car salesman and people/dealers that do things like that makes our jobs so much harder.

Honestly amazes me how many people think I make 10k a month when a reality a phone salesman can make that much (wish I was joking... know a guy who sells for at&t that owns a new GT-R)/

[PhantomX]

Originally Posted by Datcrazyeric

I agree also, Team Toyota comes to mind (I worked there and they tried to sell me the FR-S +1k over msrp) and that makes things so much harder. I'm a honest car salesman and people/dealers that do things like that makes our jobs so much harder.

Honestly amazes me how many people think I make 10k a month when a reality a phone salesman can make that much (wish I was joking... know a guy who sells for at&t that owns a new GT-R)/

I'm glad my dealership works off of MSRP. I'd feel the same way if there was markup. I probably wouldn't even have wanted to be the Scion Ambassador.

[iNcontroL]

Originally Posted by PhantomX

Negative. Just because it's the only one left doesn't mean there won't be more coming. In my dealership, we leave all but one automatic and one manual of each Scion model at port so that the ones at port can be customized to the buyer's requirements. Now, there are certain special circumstances where the dealer will drop the price, such as it's been on the lot for nearly a year or more, but it's not a matter of negotiating, but timing in the buyer's part.

I should have been more specific, but when I mentioned this point I assumed people would think I was talking about older models that they'll no longer get in stock. Such as a Monogram on the lot or a 2015. Not brand new 2016s that are still in production.

Originally Posted by PhantomX

Again, untrue. What would the vehicle being manual or automatic cheapen the worth of the vehicle? Or is it just your viewpoint of the vehicle? If you think manual is worthless compared to an automatic, then why bother trying to get a manual?

As for your trade-in, it all depends on the dealership, although there is also a strict rule of one chance pricing. It's part of the Pure Pricing policy. Full market pricing is what you're supposed to be given in order to meet the "no haggle, no hassle" motto.

I drive a manual, it's not in my viewpoint that a manual is inferior to an automatic. However from what I understand after speaking with a few friends in the business, manual cars are less sought after and they have a more difficult time getting them off the lot than automatics. Hence if you're looking for a manual, a less popular transmission... Then you have a better chance of getting a markdown. Because there's a higher chance they've been on the lot longer.

As for the trade in, I've had people give me quotes for my trade in sight unseen. Just because something should be done a certain way doesn't mean it always is.

Originally Posted by PhantomX

I love how people think TrueCar or KBB or any other website dictates how dealerships, let alone Scion, should price their vehicles. Since people think they're the experts at how cars should be priced, then why don't they buy from them? Oh, that's right... They're not the dealerships or the manufacturers... Don't like how Pure Price works and go through the stress of haggling for the price you feel you should pay for the car? Get a BRZ.

Of course TrueCar can dictate how a dealership should price their vehicles, especially when the dealership themselves lists the vehicle price on TrueCar. I'm not sure how familiar you are with it, but a lot of dealerships in my area are "TrueCar Certified" they use TrueCar to advertise their stock and list the lowest price they sell it for when you search for the specific make, year, and model along with your area code. The dealership I went to had the Monogram I wanted listed on TrueCar for 2000 below what they showed at the dealership! You damn well better believe I'm going to at least stick them to that price, and yes sometimes they might not be obligated to price their vehicles according to TrueCar or KBB, but I'm not obligated to buy from them either. The whole point of my post is negotiating a price, not enforcing one.

Originally Posted by PhantomX

Again, Pure Pricing requires dealerships to show anything they add to their Scions with the prices, aftermarket or not. That way, you get to make the informed decision whether or not that's the vehicle you want or custom order one without it.

As for your experience, I can only imagine that the dealership you went through outright violated the Scion Pure Process and Pure Pricing policy, which could (and still can if they're audited) get their ability to sell that particular brand taken away from them. OR, the Monogram Series you purchased was what dealerships call an "old age unit." For example, we have some 2013 and 2014 Scion iQs that we are selling for $5,000-$6,000 below their MSRP just so we can get rid of them. Because they're 1-2 years old, Scion is lenient enough to allow us to do this.

Yes, when I purchased my Monogram in 2014, it was the last one in that color with an MT Transmission in the entire state. Doesn't change the fact that they tried to sell it to me for 32K claiming Pure Pricing and I started to walk out the door before they gave it to me 7K cheaper. Is that against their Pure Pricing policy? I'm not sure nor do I really care, I've heard enough people say they've managed to get Scion to drop the price on a FRS and for all I know they all could have been extenuating circumstances. However, it happens enough that makes me believe it's possible and worth a shot.

Originally Posted by PhantomX

This is the best one yet. Whether you pay cash or finance, the Scion Pure Process requires dealerships to be transparent with EVERYTHING, including the rate your credit score qualifies you for through TFS. (Your local lenders may have better rates.) Everything has to be upfront with the Scion buying process. This is how the Scion Pure Process came to be. People asked for an easier, low (to no) stress purchase process from start to finish, so Scion came up with the foundations of openness, flexibility and personalization. If dealerships don't follow those three things, they receive dire repercussions. If buyers don't believe that that's how it is and STILL want to play the haggle game, then Scion is not for them.

I'm sure there's more to the circumstance that happened that you're not aware of during your purchase, or the dealership you dealt with really didn't care about losing their ability to sell Scions, which would be sad to hear because that's the very root of why people whine that Scion is a "dying brand."

I don't claim to know everything about the selling process a dealership goes through, my information was giving to me by an owner of multiple dealerships and my own personal experiences. But I'm sorry to say that I don't believe for a second that every dealership follows Scion's Pure Pricing Process. While I'm sure there are plenty of honest car salesmen out there and plenty of honest dealerships that run everything by the book. There are just as many that use unscrupulous methods to make the most money they can out of each individual that walks through their door. I wouldn't put my faith on the Scion Pure Pricing Promise unless there was a corporate rep going over the paperwork with me.

I've had a manager tell me my credit score is "in the low 600s" and that I don't qualify for Scion's 0.9% promotion when Experian showed my credit score to be 805 10 minutes before entering the dealership. While another told me I was Tier 1 and my score was 840 (Thank you Auto enhanced Fico Scores) 3 hours later.

The credit tips I have apply to buying a car in general and was not aimed at Scion. It's a good practice to use regardless of Pure Pricing because I'm sure there are plenty of people on this forum that will buy another car soon and chances are that may not be another Scion.

Every counter argument you gave was all under the assumption that every Toyota/Scion dealership you walk into will follow the Scion Pure Pricing Policy and never allow someone to haggle with them for the sake of "no hassle". Maybe if that was true it'd be different, and I'm sure a majority of dealers do follow those strict guidelines, but I bet everyone on this forum lives near one that doesn't as well.

[Datcrazyeric]

Originally Posted by PhantomX

I'm glad my dealership works off of MSRP. I'd feel the same way if there was markup. I probably wouldn't even have wanted to be the Scion Ambassador.

Right now I'm working on becoming Scion Ambassador. I'm one of the top Scion sellers in my dealership so hopefully I acheive that goal over time.

Lost count on how many people I've helped when everyone else turned them away get approved and so on.

[Datcrazyeric]

Originally Posted by iNcontroL

Yes, when I purchased my Monogram in 2014, it was the last one in that color with an MT Transmission in the entire state. Doesn't change the fact that they tried to sell it to me for 32K claiming Pure Pricing and I started to walk out the door before they gave it to me 7K cheaper. Is that against their Pure Pricing policy? I'm not sure nor do I really care, I've heard enough people say they've managed to get Scion to drop the price on a FRS and for all I know they all could have been extenuating circumstances. However, it happens enough that makes me believe it's possible and worth a shot.





I've had a manager tell me my credit score is "in the low 600s" and that I don't qualify for Scion's 0.9% promotion when Experian showed my credit score to be 805 10 minutes before entering the dealership. While another told me I was Tier 1 and my score was 840 (Thank you Auto enhanced Fico Scores) 3 hours later.

Then that dealership you had that experience at broke every rule that Scion put up. We are suppose to show you what you qualify for and have to disclose everything that is in the car, it is meant to be as transparent as possible hence why Toyota invested into it.

Sorry that you had to go through all that but not all dealerships or salesman are like that (Yes I acknowledge most people who work sales just want to make as much as possible which sounds like what happened to you but not every salesman is that way). Personal don't let one horrible experience make you think all dealerships are that way.