Dat sound - ITBs

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

That roller barrel ITB setup on the STI you linked never actually got finished; there's a thread over at NASIOC about it (if you search hard enough).

It was finished (not sure on that particular car) on another STi I tuned. That appears to be the same ITB setup on the car I tuned with a Hydra EMS. In the end it was a total waste of time, money, and netted nothing.

Now I've tuned a high power NA Miata with ITBs. With a Hydra we got about 175 whp on unleaded race. Apparently this was some sort of record but what do I know I tuned mostly turbocharged setups in the 600+ range . You need a really good EMS (with specific configurations for ITBs) and a lot of knowledge to tune the ITBs well.

I know our main focus for the FRS/BRZ is going to be developing the Hydra EMS so that we can turbocharge this engine effectively. Now we may be dropping the compression first and going backwards from there. I definitely want to get the direct injection setup working so we can at least fully tune this engine's variable cam timing, maybe drop our Hydramist system on it, and tune either race gas or E85. I'm just not sure the NA guys are going to drop $2000-2500 on the EMS but I know the turbocharged guys will in a heartbeat.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by virtual_bob

A standalone that runs MAP AND Direct Injection? Outside Motec and another company, I'm not aware of any solutions that cost less than $6000.00 for the ECU alone...

Cheers!

Motec won't run this system. The injectors fire at around 40 volts through a separate driver unit, and the high pressure fuel pump is computer controlled as well.

Nothing currently on the market is configured to control these particular devices. NOTHING - not a single damn EMS.

[Drift-Office]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

Motec won't run this system. The injectors fire at around 40 volts through a separate driver unit, and the high pressure fuel pump is computer controlled as well.

Not the current line for sure. Last I read they had something in the works for about $10k - not sure if they're in the market yet, but they were the closest when we started looking into the D4-S. There was another company that had one at about $6k, but the name escapes me too, but yeah, too many variables across different platforms so it's hard to get a one-size fits all solution for right now.

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

Nothing currently on the market is configured to control these particular devices. NOTHING - not a single damn EMS.

Thank you - that's at least my consensus but some seem to think that's it's just that easy to wire up a stand alone and work the DI portion. Still, regardless of what's said here, some will still try as I'm sure we'll soon see, and with very interesting results too if I might add.

Now if Cobb gets their product to market, that would be awesome...

Regards!

[Dimman]

I remembered seeing this, too.



Separate ECU/DI injector driver according to Perrin. Anyone have any more details on its operation?

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

Motec won't run this system. The injectors fire at around 40 volts through a separate driver unit, and the high pressure fuel pump is computer controlled as well.

Nothing currently on the market is configured to control these particular devices. NOTHING - not a single damn EMS.

We are developing the Hydra EMS for this. Since it runs a separate driver box the EMS doesn't need to drive the actual injectors, just the signals to the driver box. Don't get me wrong it's still complicated and we need to reprogram the injector phasing range and have to drive the pump with new maps. Given how the OEM ecu circuit board is configured there's no reason the Hydra EMS can't do this. The software needs to be written to add the direct injection maps which will cost money and time so it's still not easy but we're doing it.

What's holding me back right now is an ECM IO diagram. I couldn't get one yet on the Subaru Technical website so if anyone has access please let me know.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[Esoteric]

Hey Phil, good luck. Had several friends with Hydras in there Subbies and all were happy, driveability was also very good.

I spoke to a contact at a large ECU company that we all know (though I am not sure I can disclose ) and was informed that they had an project lined up with the V8 IS-F (a very similar implementation of fuel system) and they told me that its if fact, very complex even for them, and they were not able to do it yet! (it was a swap of the IS-F engine)

Direct injection as the only fuel delivery wasn't a problem for them, but the combination they found in the IS-F was a problem.
Waiting to hear back on BRZ/FRS developments.

[Dimman]

^ Guys with bike tuning experience may be helpful. The phasing of the DI and port may be similar to the port and outboard 'showerhead' injectors that some bikes use.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Esoteric

Hey Phil, good luck. Had several friends with Hydras in there Subbies and all were happy, driveability was also very good.

I spoke to a contact at a large ECU company that we all know (though I am not sure I can disclose ) and was informed that they had an project lined up with the V8 IS-F (a very similar implementation of fuel system) and they told me that its if fact, very complex even for them, and they were not able to do it yet! (it was a swap of the IS-F engine)

Direct injection as the only fuel delivery wasn't a problem for them, but the combination they found in the IS-F was a problem.
Waiting to hear back on BRZ/FRS developments.

Thanks.

It's honestly amazing how much ground I've made already with this car and we have the connectors, dual AVCS, and the DBW stuff already worked out. Unlike the IS-F there is much less integration with the FRS/BRZ as far as the CAN systems and the transmission (We are not really working towards the Auto integration yet just the manual).

The CAN bus stuff can be difficult and we've just about got it all dialed for the 08+ STis it will also require work on this car. Until we fully developed the CAN integration on the STi we ran the OEM ecu in parallel so that it could report some of the dash functions like speed and coolant temp. It's possible on the early release of the FRS/BRZ ECU we'll do the same. If demand doesn't materialize then it's going to be hard to justify the engineering costs associated with cracking all this stuff and for many manufacturers it just boils down to dollars and cents.

I don't want abandon the NA guys as I I've discovered hidden power in the dual AVCS systems for the STi and I could likely do the same for these cars. With integration of the Hydramist water/meth system and or race/E85 I think I can get substantial power gains. For high power NA to work with the high compression however we need those direct injectors.

[arghx7]

The only individual electronic throttlebodies in use for street cars that I can think of are on high end engines like what you find on the S65 engine for for BMW E60 M5 or the 1LR-GUE engine for the Lexus LFA.



What you have here is a set of butterfly valves attached to a common shaft for each bank. Each bank needs its own throttle position sensor and a control method needs to be devised. For BMW, they control the two banks independently and coordinate between the two banks using a high speed data bus.

One of the main advantages is that the throttle valves are placed downstream of the plenum.



Therefore the software does not need to model a large delay/time constant to account for the filling of the manifold as charge air is moving from the airflow meter towards the cylinder.

This issue of time constants is one of the reasons why people run into fueling problems when they install a front mount intercooler on their WRX. The internal airflow model gets messed up.

If you are able to manufacture a part that works, it would still not be easy to control ITBs consistently. Of course you could do some basic lookup table but it would be an uphill climb to make it behave on the street. Who knows how many man hours went into writing Toyota's software for ITB control.

[markmatley]

Originally Posted by arghx7

The only individual electronic throttlebodies in use for street cars that I can think of are on high end engines like what you find on the S65 engine for for BMW E60 M5 or the 1LR-GUE engine for the Lexus LFA.

+1 for the technical engine pedagogy!

[JP]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

What's holding me back right now is an ECM IO diagram. I couldn't get one yet on the Subaru Technical website so if anyone has access please let me know.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

Here you go, it's a 3.2mb pic:
http://www.purcellperformance.com/Te.../FT86_full.jpg

[markmatley]

Originally Posted by JP

Here you go, it's a 3.2mb pic:
http://www.purcellperformance.com/Te.../FT86_full.jpg

Bad*ss! Handy to have!

[Esoteric]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Thanks.

It's honestly amazing how much ground I've made already with this car and we have the connectors, dual AVCS, and the DBW stuff already worked out. Unlike the IS-F there is much less integration with the FRS/BRZ as far as the CAN systems and the transmission (We are not really working towards the Auto integration yet just the manual).

The CAN bus stuff can be difficult and we've just about got it all dialed for the 08+ STis it will also require work on this car. Until we fully developed the CAN integration on the STi we ran the OEM ecu in parallel so that it could report some of the dash functions like speed and coolant temp. It's possible on the early release of the FRS/BRZ ECU we'll do the same. If demand doesn't materialize then it's going to be hard to justify the engineering costs associated with cracking all this stuff and for many manufacturers it just boils down to dollars and cents.

I don't want abandon the NA guys as I I've discovered hidden power in the dual AVCS systems for the STi and I could likely do the same for these cars. With integration of the Hydramist water/meth system and or race/E85 I think I can get substantial power gains. For high power NA to work with the high compression however we need those direct injectors.

Very good stuff to know. Thanks for the follow up Phil.

I think that a solid tune along with some hot cams will be a tight setup for many folks... Cheap no, but pure? YES.

a few key mods, along with very comprehensive variable valve timing control (built into said tune) could make a very street friendly setup with wicked mid and top-end power. I might have to give you guys a jingle shortly

[Esoteric]

Originally Posted by arghx7

The only individual electronic throttlebodies in use for street cars that I can think of are on high end engines like what you find on the S65 engine for for BMW E60 M5 or the 1LR-GUE engine for the Lexus LFA.

We have worked with some BMW S65/S85 swap stuff in the past. Its doable... Now that its been reverse engineered that is.
The problem I see is not with the implementation from the technical standpoint, its available now... its going to be the cost.
Very hard to justify for this car... the ITBs will be costly, let alone the ECU solution.

If the demand is there, along side the turbos and S/C... It might happen, probably see it from a company like Toda.