Everyday Driver - ND Miata vs. FR-S vs. BRZ

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

I think the NB unit was actually Torsen branded, but a clutch-type LSD.

I did the wise thing when I bought my NB - I found one that had been modified as I would like to do it myself. I ended up paying the same as I would have for a stock NB on the same miles / condition, but also got a roll bar, front sway bar, lightened flywheel, upgraded brakes and Ohlins coilovers.

Of course, at the same time I was selling my highly-modified 240sx for less than half of what I paid for the parts in it.

Live and learn. No someone please go buy an ND and start modifying it. I'll be by in a few years to purchase it from you.

-Justin

You might be right on the Torsen brand clutch type LSD , I might have read that torsen and automatically thought it's the mechanical type..and you obviously did your homework on Miatas t ..

What many people don't understand is when comparing an FRS to a ND club Miata, not only the ND costs $5-6k more than an FRS but also there are hidden costs like the things you and I mentioned that need to be added on top of that already more expensive price tag (ND club) which is not a case for FRS (rollover protection, suspension upgrade. Etc)

[bodayguy]

Man, this thread is getting rough.
Seriously, if I wanted a TRACK car, I'd go buy a used Miata that someone else had set up already and wanted to get rid of. Or a Boxster, same plan, etc etc.

[MrDinkleman]

"Torsen" is a brand and a type of LSD, like "Xerox" and "Band Aid".


Early NBs had Torsen brand torsens while later NBs (NB2, facelifted version)had the Tochigi torsen. I don't think any NBs came with clutch type LSDs from the factory.


Not all NBs had LSDs, though. If you need more details, search on Miata.net.


As for ND vs. BRZ/FR-S, to me it just comes down to: if you want a convertible, get an ND. If you want a hardtop coupe, get a BRZ/FR-S. Trying to discuss which is better beyond that is splitting hairs.


The real debate is Miata Coupe vs. BRZ/FR-S vs. S16 (if Nissan ever makes a S15 successor)....

[jvincent]

I have no dog in this fight, but the argument really boils down to this.

The prices of the cars as tested were the same and neither model was base so arguably that makes it a fair comparison.

Where people start to disagree is that for the FRS/BRZ, the option package was a purely cosmetic one while the Miata added performance options.

Since the comparison for the cars was on track times then it doesn't make sense to add performance upgrades to one and cosmetic options to the other since that skews the comparison.

I sense that at this point there will be no convincing either side.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by glamcem

see above, I purchased my 2013 Miata club (brand new) for $23k and it had a special engine that makes 167hp stock and bigger hubs
I was getting 36-37mpg on my BRZ that I've recently sold (when it was NA of course) and with the Supercharger and after 120hp it dropped to 32-33mpg on highway, feel free to visit my build thread to see mpg figures if interested

It's like all of this could be replaced with "nuh-uh"
I said NEW under 2,500 lbs, you have to admit that a 'new 2013' you can buy in 2015 is a fluke. Guess the 86 had a year of direct competition against the 1 RX-8 sold in 2012

The FA20 is a great unit, but that's a different comparison. The new SkyActiv 2.0L in the Miata is pretty damn good too laying down that 5.9s 0-60 time while stoutly improving over the MZR in the NC in just about every area (stock) except peak hp and how high the redline is.

Originally Posted by glamcem

no, it's the bare minimum, $1k for the proper roll bar so the organization will allow you to attend the event in the first place ( I wouldn't even consider driving the car in the street with the stock roll bar that was my very first mod in my Miata), ~$2k for a proper wheel/tire setup, ~$350-400 for a set of pads that won't fade in the first lap (go watch Motortrend's track talk if you need confirmation), swaybars and preferably a coilover ~$1000-1500 unless you can leave with that truck-like body roll

Originally Posted by glamcem

forgot to mention:
if you don't get a club or GT, add those figures a torsen type LSD that will typically cost $1200 + installation, also FYI, the newer Miatas come with clutch type LSDs (vs NA or NB's torsen type), at the track it's very common they don't handle the heat and become an open diff (in case you get the Club edition that has the LSD)...

also the OEM clutch didn't really hold the 160whp, so it also had to be replaced $1k parts+installation

Again, this if for YOU to call the car track capable. Many people (whether wise or unwise) track Miata's with the factory rollover protection and will continue to do so, your opinion notwithstanding. Any set of tires and wheels is 'proper' as long as they are strong and safe, I did two track days on my Primacy's and will use the stock 86 wheels for another year or two or three, for all this talk about how the S001's are SOOO much better than the Primacy's I hope they can hold up as well as mine did. Hehehe "truck like body roll", again, your opinion that is "unacceptable" on track, thousands will happily track it with stock suspension with zero issues (and I'd certainly take it over most $1k 'coilovers' although we don't need to argue that point here), same thing with the LSD, it almost sounds like you think every HPDE should inspect cars for tiny minutiae before they let them out on track

"What? You're not on the pre-approved <300TW tires? You still have factory fluid in the transmission, and it's a BASE model! I'm sorry sir this just isn't safe, please leave before I find out you haven't changed the motor oil to a higher weight to handle the heat or that you don't have the sport seats."

Miata club model: MSRP ~$29.4k
Pads and fluid: ~$400

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by glamcem

oh really? we also live in a world where a 430 hp Mustang 5.0 costs $32k and 450hp Camaro (2016) costs $37k, you know the fact a base V6 Camaro will cost $27k and offer 335hp and weight ~3300 lbs and will be a lot faster sports car for the money, right?

$32k for Miata is plain absurd IMO, . especially since it doesn't bring anything special to the table (mainstream engine that will typically cost less than $1000, not an MZR engine that revs up to 7400 rpm, funky bilstein shocks that is not even track capable) and you will still need to spent at least $4-5k to make it track-capable.. I do love the Miata but I would much prefer getting a slightly used NC Miata (yes it's about 170lbs heavier) but shouldn't cost more than $14-15k all things considered , it makes more sense to me (financially)

This post alone makes your rebuttal to me seem like I was right. You compare our cars to heavy overweight GT cars that is not a sports car. I don't mind paying for a more focused car with adequate power. When people buy Mustangs they have to make a compromise in every other regard of a sporting vehicle primarily because of the V8 engine. Just because it has a V8 engine for 32-37k doesn't mean that it's worth the money to some of us. I would hate to pay 32-37k and the only good part of the car is the engine.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

It's like all of this could be replaced with "nuh-uh"
I said NEW under 2,500 lbs, you have to admit that a 'new 2013' you can buy in 2015 is a fluke. Guess the 86 had a year of direct competition against the 1 RX-8 sold in 2012

The FA20 is a great unit, but that's a different comparison. The new SkyActiv 2.0L in the Miata is pretty damn good too laying down that 5.9s 0-60 time while stoutly improving over the MZR in the NC in just about every area (stock) except peak hp and how high the redline is.

here you go, there are also hundreds of new 2015 Miatas on autotrader

http://goo.gl/4yQVG2

Again, this if for YOU to call the car track capable. Many people (whether wise or unwise) track Miata's with the factory rollover protection and will continue to do so, your opinion notwithstanding. Any set of tires and wheels is 'proper' as long as they are strong and safe, I did two track days on my Primacy's and will use the stock 86 wheels for another year or two or three, for all this talk about how the S001's are SOOO much better than the Primacy's I hope they can hold up as well as mine did. Hehehe "truck like body roll", again, your opinion that is "unacceptable" on track, thousands will happily track it with stock suspension with zero issues (and I'd certainly take it over most $1k 'coilovers' although we don't need to argue that point here), same thing with the LSD, it almost sounds like you think every HPDE should inspect cars for tiny minutiae before they let them out on track

"What? You're not on the pre-approved <300TW tires? You still have factory fluid in the transmission, and it's a BASE model! I'm sorry sir this just isn't safe, please leave before I find out you haven't changed the motor oil to a higher weight to handle the heat or that you don't have the sport seats."

Miata club model: MSRP ~$29.4k
Pads and fluid: ~$400

"again" NOT TRUE I haven't seen any organization that allows without a proper roll bar or broomstick test, even if you could would you do that? it's your life and your money, but I wouldn't track any car without the bare minimums (suspension might be an exception) .. but "$32k Miata is not overpriced" is just an opinion not a fact

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

This post alone makes your rebuttal to me seem like I was right. You compare our cars to heavy overweight GT cars that is not a sports car. I don't mind paying for a more focused car with adequate power. When people buy Mustangs they have to make a compromise in every other regard of a sporting vehicle primarily because of the V8 engine. Just because it has a V8 engine for 32-37k doesn't mean that it's worth the money to some of us. I would hate to pay 32-37k and the only good part of the car is the engine.

you're clueless about what you're talking about, just saying ..

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Actually so far your 2.1s claim is entirely unsubstantiated.

Haha almost sounds like you doubt me Strat. I'm a bit Anyway here you go, 2.1 second improvement on RE050A as promised at Hockenheim short. It was Sport Auto that did the comparison:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=682127

I haven't been able to find the other 1.5 second test I remembered, but here's a Consumer Reports test that found MP summer tires gave the FR-S "record-setting" performance:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...ance/index.htm

Unfortunately no lap times, but they did set a CR record for their double lane change maneuver with the MP tire upgrade (increasing speed by 2.6 mph over OEM HP Primacys). Brake performance increased as well, dropping their 60-0 distance to 2nd ever (9 feet shorter than OEM HP Primacys).

So far that's 3 tests on MP tires that show handling and braking improve over OEM HP Primacy's. One shows small improvement, two show significant improvement, but all show some sort of improvement. I don't think it's a stretch to think you'd find 0.5 s/lap equalizing tires between the Twins and ND. I think any tire in the MP category would improve on the Twins' OEM grand touring tires honestly.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Again, this if for YOU to call the car track capable. Many people (whether wise or unwise) track Miata's with the factory rollover protection and will continue to do so, your opinion notwithstanding.

Actually a lot of tracks require roll bars for convertibles. (For example, most tracks near me do.) So he's right that to track a Miata, you may be required to put in a roll bar to clear broomstick. Hidden cost, similar to the S2000 and other convertibles.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by glamcem

you're clueless about what you're talking about, just saying ..

Pot calling the kettle huh?

I can tell by some of your previous own cars that big power fuels your bias for what is worth it. I have own GT cars so I know what the hell I'm talking about.

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

This post alone makes your rebuttal to me seem like I was right. You compare our cars to heavy overweight GT cars that is not a sports car. I don't mind paying for a more focused car with adequate power. When people buy Mustangs they have to make a compromise in every other regard of a sporting vehicle primarily because of the V8 engine. Just because it has a V8 engine for 32-37k doesn't mean that it's worth the money to some of us. I would hate to pay 32-37k and the only good part of the car is the engine.

This may have been true about the Mustang 10 years ago, but not today. Ford has really stepped up the development of the chassis to the point that the stang is a world class sports car. And the sound of the new flat plane V8 is fantastic and exotic.

I'm not nearly as sold on the Camaro, but the roads are narrow and congested here. The size of that thing and the terrible visibility just don't make it a sensible option. If I lived in some parts of the southwest those considerations wouldn't be as a big a deal. I think most of the reviewers have said the Camaro is a good chassis, but it's big and it feels big.

At the end of the day, they could offer a 900hp Miata and a 200hp Miata for the same price, and I'd probably go with the 200hp version. I just don't have a place to use that power, and eventually I'd just get myself in trouble trying to find a way to use it.

-Justin

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by glamcem

here you go, there are also hundreds of new 2015 Miatas on autotrader

http://goo.gl/4yQVG2

Guess I'll have to wait a few months to win that argument handily.

Originally Posted by glamcem

"again" NOT TRUE I haven't seen any organization that allows without a proper roll bar or broomstick test, even if you could would you do that? it's your life and your money, but I wouldn't track any car without the bare minimums (suspension might be an exception) .. but "$32k Miata is not overpriced" is just an opinion not a fact

'nuh-uh' NOT TRUE, I've seen several organizations allow Miata's (NC's at that) on track with OEM rollover protection. Hehehe wouldn't it be a bit ridiculous if Mazda Raceway didn't allow stock Miata's on track?

"Bare minimums" For each car it's different, the Miata and 86 are fortunate to roll out of the factory needing nothing more than brake pads and fluid with suspension that's capable and tires that aren't garbage. I agree that there comes a point where I would want a quality safety setup in a recent Miata (in the scenario with an NA/NB I'd definitely have it) but it isn't at stock-ish performance levels.

I actually wholeheartedly agree that a $32k Miata is overpriced (just like I'm sure many of us think a >$30k 86 is overpriced). For what it offers under $30k however is hard to beat imo.

[Justin.b]

Wow. I read this thrtead and then went to pick someone up from the airport and saw my first ND in the wild... then another a few minutes later.

-Justin

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

This may have been true about the Mustang 10 years ago, but not today. Ford has really stepped up the development of the chassis to the point that the stang is a world class sports car. And the sound of the new flat plane V8 is fantastic and exotic.

I'm not nearly as sold on the Camaro, but the roads are narrow and congested here. The size of that thing and the terrible visibility just don't make it a sensible option. If I lived in some parts of the southwest those considerations wouldn't be as a big a deal. I think most of the reviewers have said the Camaro is a good chassis, but it's big and it feels big.

At the end of the day, they could offer a 900hp Miata and a 200hp Miata for the same price, and I'd probably go with the 200hp version. I just don't have a place to use that power, and eventually I'd just get myself in trouble trying to find a way to use it.

-Justin

Have you actually read the in depth reviews of the 2015 Stangs? Hell even Matt Farrah chose a Fiesta ST over the Turbo Stang. Please look up the video and he will tell you that the car is numb, it packed on more weight, but that because of the IRS suspension it rides more compliant. These things will never feel like a "TRUE" sports car. A slightly sharper GT is what you have in these cars.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRu_iQUVNtg"]EcoBoost Battle: Fiesta ST vs Mustang - YouTube[/ame]