Everyday Driver - ND Miata vs. FR-S vs. BRZ

[fatoni]

A relatively cheap tire upgrade is about the same as a relatively cheap hard top or relatively cheap Springs or sway bars so any gap either car closes should be gained on the other end...but bench racing is the most hard core of motorsports so I don't know if the rules will allow it

[DarkSunrise]

Hahaha I thought posting actual laptimes would quickly end the "which is faster" debate, but it only fueled the fire. Oh well, live and learn.

It's an interesting debate, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. No sane person is going to buy one over the other based on laptimes especially when it varies by track (for Daemano's sake, I'll add I'm talking about Clubsport here - we all know there's a slower base model ).

I can understand the rivalry (probably the two best "driver's cars" under $50k), but there are more significant differences between the two (-400 lbs., better TTW ratio, convertible/need for roll bar, 2 seater, softer suspension, lighter steering feel, etc.)

They're both designed to be fun lightweight RWD cars, but with key differences in design. The Miata is differentiated enough from the Twins where I can see a niche for each.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

'14 Mini Cooper S, so much delicious torque out of that B48 and ~100 lbs lighter than my 86.

Yeah Minis are really fun cars. I remember driving an R56 MCS (older model) and really loving the experience. The turn-in was awesome, probably better than anything I had driven to that point. I can imagine it's going to be an animal on RE71R's

Originally Posted by Entroper

Eh, they're kinda doing the same thing over there regarding the Everyday Driver review. And they got all up in arms over the Lightning Lap times at VIR, too. It's funny to see the same arguments from both sides.

Haha I always wondered what Miata guys thought of the Twins. On this board at least, I always felt like there was an appreciation for Miatas (and S2000's).

[RandomDeception]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I'll have to search for it later tonight. It was posted a while back on this site. The test was at Hockenheim short course. I think there was another test showing ~1.5 second improvement switching to MP tires. Really stretching my memory here though.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...ransformation/

I'm not sure about which one you're referring to, but this different performance test shows what you mean. The lap time of the Scion FR-S dropped from 1:29.3 to 1:27.0 with just a tire swap from the stock Michelin Primacy HP tires.

Quite a large difference of 2.3 seconds for a relatively short track I would say.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by RandomDeception

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...ransformation/

I'm not sure about which one you're referring to, but this different performance test shows what you mean. The lap time of the Scion FR-S dropped from 1:29.3 to 1:27.0 with just a tire swap from the stock Michelin Primacy HP tires.

Quite a large difference of 2.3 seconds for a relatively short track I would say.

Thanks - yeah that one was a switch to "extreme performance" EP tires, but Strat and I were actually debating what the difference is switching to "max performance" MP tires.

So far there's one test showing a 0.2 s improvement and another showing a 2.1 s gain. So the range of possibilities is quite wide, from 0.2-2.1 seconds roughly. I suspect this is related to the wide range of tires in the MP category, from cheap tires like Kumho V12Evo / Sumi HTRZ3's to Michelin Pilot Super Sport's.

I vaguely remember another test showing something like a 1.5 s gain, but haven't been able to find it.

But yeah the Twins pick up huge gains switching to EP tires. There are tests where Twins have pulled 1.00 g and done 70+ mph slaloms simply switching to EP tires. Also 1.40+ g peak braking.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Nobody's head exploded over the Club Miata being marginally quicker around a track than a Series Blue BRZ. Still for those that refuse to acknowledge the unevenness of that comparison, and then at the same time tout the superiority of the MX-5 (chassis, suspension, design philospohy), yeah, they should be rebutted.

Once again, for the 28th time, remind me how showing up with two ~$30k sports cars and declaring one faster is uneven?

Seems like the person who's head exploded the most was yours...

Originally Posted by RandomDeception

I'm not sure about which one you're referring to, but this different performance test shows what you mean. The lap time of the Scion FR-S dropped from 1:29.3 to 1:27.0 with just a tire swap from the stock Michelin Primacy HP tires.

As Dark already posted, ZII's are in a different class than the RE050A. And in my humble opinion, on my car they (well ZIISS) were less of an improvement than camber plates and an alignment for almost the same money.

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

So far there's one test showing a 0.2 s improvement and another showing a 2.1 s gain. So the range of possibilities is quite wide, from 0.2-2.1 seconds roughly.

Actually so far your 2.1s claim is entirely unsubstantiated.

Lots of passive aggressive drinking in this thread... Kinda like a bar conversation where 'buddy' becomes a sinister word...

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Once again, for the 28th time, remind me how showing up with two ~$30k sports cars and declaring one faster is uneven?

Really? Ok, I'll answer (for the 28th time).

When one of the $30k sports cars (Series Blue BRZ) can be had for $26k with the equal performance (base FR-S)...

...while the other (Club MX-5 w/BBK+BBS $32k) cannot (base MX-5 $26k).

Ok so you answer I answered your question, now you answer mine...

How much faster would you say a Club Miata than a base Miata around any of the given tracks you noted? Since you've been willing to guess on 86 performance numbers with tires, use that same incredible estimation ability on both versions of the MX-5.

[GT86meMR2]

So the Miata with club sport package is faster than a stock twin with tires and suspension setup for sliding around corners.. How "impressive" somehow i don't really care how both of these cars compare to eachother stock wise.. I'm pretty intrested how they will compare when People that weekend track these cars have modified them both for weekend track use though. Both are great cars regardless and both have their ups and downs.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

How much faster would you say a Club Miata than a base Miata around any of the given tracks you noted? Since you've been willing to guess on 86 performance numbers with tires, use that same incredible estimation ability on both versions of the MX-5.

You're right, I guess on a car which I own and have performed the modifications discussed (tires, stock to ZIISS in OEM size) and use published tests to back up my claims.

I do not know the amount of advantage the bilsteins and LSD give the Club over the Base MX-5, it will be interesting when it comes out but imo it's not terribly relevant. In your opinion it is.

Hmm maybe that's the trick, you keep spouting that "the comparison is unfair" as if it's indisputable. Like the person who is looking to take a new sports car to the track won't save up $3k for the LSD option if the Miata is their desired car and will feel betrayed when it doesn't live up to the magazine test.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by JS + BRZ

I don't know. We are living in the world where a loaded Civic costs +$25K, a loaded Accord costs +$35K, and a loaded 335i costs close to +$55K. Don't think the cars are that overpriced. Just my 2 cents.

oh really? we also live in a world where a 430 hp Mustang 5.0 costs $32k and 450hp Camaro (2016) costs $37k, you know the fact a base V6 Camaro will cost $27k and offer 335hp and weight ~3300 lbs and will be a lot faster sports car for the money, right?

$32k for Miata is plain absurd IMO, . especially since it doesn't bring anything special to the table (mainstream engine that will typically cost less than $1000, not an MZR engine that revs up to 7400 rpm, funky bilstein shocks that is not even track capable) and you will still need to spent at least $4-5k to make it track-capable.. I do love the Miata but I would much prefer getting a slightly used NC Miata (yes it's about 170lbs heavier) but shouldn't cost more than $14-15k all things considered , it makes more sense to me (financially)

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I agree the cars are not overpriced. I think people are obsessed with defining that price should correlate with big horsepower/practicality rather than the overall driving experience. The 86 Twins and Mx5 is literally the cheapest true sports cars in the North America.

No they're not, otherwise they wouldn't be here, discussing their past experience with both Miata and BRZ/FRS, right?

I've purchased my 2013 Miata club for $23k and I feel that is the fair price for a Miata not a penny more, since it needs significant amount of upgrades to be able to drive at the track ..

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by glamcem

$32k for Miata is plain absurd IMO, . especially since it doesn't bring anything special to the table (mainstream engine that will typically cost less than $1000, not an MZR engine that revs up to 7400 rpm, funky bilstein shocks that is not even track capable) and you will still need to spent at least $4-5k to make it track-capable.. I do love the Miata but I would much prefer getting a slightly used NC Miata (yes it's about 170lbs heavier) but shouldn't cost more than $14-15k all things considered , it makes more sense to me (financially)

Hehe, nothing special to the table? How many new RWD cars under 2,500 lbs can I buy right now? Talk about a boring segment with so many options

2.0L 4-banger with a fat torque band that gets 40 mpg? I know that NC struggles to get better than 30 mpg in the best conditions, with less torque than the new motor, my buddy has never seen anything outside of low 20's (but with a heavy foot).

$4k to make it track capable? Maybe to your standards, which probably means just about every car on the market needs several thousands of dollars. Just like the 86 it seems like it can hit the track just fine with a set of uprated pads and fluid (at least the club tested with the Brembos, hopefully the regular calipers only need the same). Like the 86, most people should be able to have a good time in their brand new MX-5 on track or at the autocross for under $30k (most reviews say the extra $3k on the brembos and wheels is a waste).

Financially speaking, I can't think of anything that can beat a nice NA/NB for $5k in terms of sports car fun, so that's a slippery slope.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Hehe, nothing special to the table? How many new RWD cars under 2,500 lbs can I buy right now? Talk about a boring segment with so many options

see above, I purchased my 2013 Miata club (brand new) for $23k and it had a special engine that makes 167hp stock and bigger hubs

2.0L 4-banger with a fat torque band that gets 40 mpg? I know that NC struggles to get better than 30 mpg in the best conditions, with less torque than the new motor, my buddy has never seen anything outside of low 20's (but with a heavy foot).

I was getting 36-37mpg on my BRZ that I've recently sold (when it was NA of course) and with the Supercharger and after 120hp it dropped to 32-33mpg on highway, feel free to visit my build thread to see mpg figures if interested

$4k to make it track capable? Maybe to your standards, which probably means just about every car on the market needs several thousands of dollars. Just like the 86 it seems like it can hit the track just fine with a set of uprated pads and fluid (at least the club tested with the Brembos, hopefully the regular calipers only need the same). Like the 86, most people should be able to have a good time in their brand new MX-5 on track or at the autocross for under $30k (most reviews say the extra $3k on the brembos and wheels is a waste).

no, it's the bare minimum, $1k for the proper roll bar so the organization will allow you to attend the event in the first place ( I wouldn't even consider driving the car in the street with the stock roll bar that was my very first mod in my Miata), ~$2k for a proper wheel/tire setup, ~$350-400 for a set of pads that won't fade in the first lap (go watch Motortrend's track talk if you need confirmation), swaybars and preferably a coilover ~$1000-1500 unless you can leave with that truck-like body roll

Financially speaking, I can't think of anything that can beat a nice NA/NB for $5k in terms of sports car fun, so that's a slippery slope.

agreed, but let's also not forget nowadays a 2006-2007 NC1 Miata can be had around ~$7-8k, it's a better car in any terms compared to NA or NB

[glamcem]

forgot to mention:
if you don't get a club or GT, add those figures a torsen type LSD that will typically cost $1200 + installation, also FYI, the newer Miatas come with clutch type LSDs (vs NA or NB's torsen type), at the track it's very common they don't handle the heat and become an open diff (in case you get the Club edition that has the LSD)...

also the OEM clutch didn't really hold the 160whp, so it also had to be replaced $1k parts+installation

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by glamcem

forgot to mention:
if you don't get a club or GT, add those figures a torsen type LSD that will typically cost $1200 + installation, also FYI, the newer Miatas come with clutch type LSDs (vs NA or NB's torsen type), at the track it's very common they don't handle the heat and become an open diff (in case you get the Club edition that has the LSD)...

also the OEM clutch didn't really hold the 160whp, so it also had to be replaced $1k parts+installation

I think the NB unit was actually Torsen branded, but a clutch-type LSD.

I did the wise thing when I bought my NB - I found one that had been modified as I would like to do it myself. I ended up paying the same as I would have for a stock NB on the same miles / condition, but also got a roll bar, front sway bar, lightened flywheel, upgraded brakes and Ohlins coilovers.

Of course, at the same time I was selling my highly-modified 240sx for less than half of what I paid for the parts in it.

Live and learn. No someone please go buy an ND and start modifying it. I'll be by in a few years to purchase it from you.

-Justin