Coilovers ?

[Dammod]

Originally Posted by Fish Eagle

I totally agree.
I didn't bite the previous poster because he said that.
I bit him because he's a troll with a history of challenging almost everything.

The reality is that most coilover installations don't result in a handling improvement for the variety of reasons you've stated.

Most noobs think that fitting coilovers guarantees better handling which is far from the truth.

At Red Star, Jacques Stiglet is a few secs faster than me, and I wanted to find out where.

I assumed it was (1) his experience as a professional racecar driver, (2) their coilovers (ohlins) vs my stock suspension, (3) that they had more power than me (their demo car maybe had some private tweaks), (4) that they had more power than me due to using lots of expensive Torco vs me using a bit of cheap Liqui Moly OB, and (5) that I make more mistakes.

I did very detailed comparisons and found that I could eliminate the power items 3 & 4 because our acceleration and speed were identical. I found that item 5 is (obviously) a factor, but interestingly, both him and I made a mistake in the specific best laps I compared. I found that I could eliminate suspension (item 2) because our cornering speeds (apex and exit) were almost identical. In some cases I was a little bit faster or vice-versa, but absolutely minimal differences. The only real difference came down to his bravery which doubtless comes from his skill and professional experience. He brakes a fraction later than me and therefore stays WOT that fraction longer on the straights, whereas I might complete my braking 5m or 10m earlier than necessary and then "coast" for a fraction of a second, or slightly overbrake. He avoids that "waste", and with 13 corners in a 2m20 lap, a quarter of a second going into each corner adds up to the 3 secs he's quicker than me.

Are their Ohlins setup properly - dunno, but I'm not yet convinced they're any faster than my stock suspension. We'll see in future what happens.

My post was more for general comment, not directly at you, I enjoy these conversations

I hear your points, however I think the best would be to have the same driver with the same car reach his best lap-times on stock suspension, then change over to properly setup coil-overs then repeat. That's the ideal but your comparison to Stiglet is interesting and useful nonetheless.

Considering the points you make, you may also be underestimating yourself - perhaps your driving ability is making up the difference you see in cornering speed etc.

Race teams on this forum almost all have upgraded coilovers, there must be a reason for this: this is another one of my thoughts about this.

As mentioned, when I have hit the track a good number of times more in my car I'll upgrade to coilovers. I have a laptime in mind that I would like to reach on stock suspension. When I get there, I'll upgrade them then report back. I'm very interested to see the results.

I'm 90% sure I will see a improvement, but because of how excellent the stock setup is, I don't think it will be as massive jump as it was in my Impreza but measureable nonetheless.


Having said all of this, another aspect of the suspension that is overlooked is swaybars. If all you are after is to eliminate bodyroll, your first point of call should be swaybars. People tend to jump straight to coilovers but there are also other aspects to look at, like bracing: having bracing above and below your shock absorbents and well as chassis bracing will help the stock suspension to their job better.

Lots to think about :-)

[FT_86_SM_GP]

Originally Posted by evomike

not a troll at all and I challenge a lot of things posted here because they are flat out wrong, most peoples opinions here come from people who have never built or tracked anything and came from economy cars. and it is completely foolish to think that the stock suspension on these cars is the fastest suspension, my car is faster on my coilovers and alignment.

This is South Africa buddy, our economy is like a bad case of eBola.

Getting "Proper" coilovers (Like Ohlins) can cost in the range of R40,000 to R35,000 after shipping and customs tax considered...

Rand(ZAR) Vs Benefit - Hard to substantiate a second(or two) gain on the track.

Americans tend to share their opinions in the Africa forum...not sure about their relevance.

[evomike]

Originally Posted by FT_86_SM_GP

This is South Africa buddy, our economy is like a bad case of eBola.

Getting "Proper" coilovers (Like Ohlins) can cost in the range of R40,000 to R35,000 after shipping and customs tax considered...

Rand(ZAR) Vs Benefit - Hard to substantiate a second(or two) gain on the track.

Americans tend to share their opinions in the Africa forum...not sure about their relevance.

im sharing an opinion on the fact that he stated the oem suspension is perfect and better than any A/M unit, suspension designed for a Subaru forester is not perfect for a sports car.

[FT_86_SM_GP]

Originally Posted by evomike

im sharing an opinion on the fact that he stated the oem suspension is perfect and better than any A/M unit, suspension designed for a Subaru forester is not perfect for a sports car.

Agreed,

I understand where you are coming from,

Also understand that FishEagle was responding to my original question on a $900 BC BR Suspension or $300 spring question...

Your 'faster' suspension is surely not that set up / coilover option ?

[FT_86_SM_GP]

I also read an interesting post on Stock Suspension, I will share the link to the page when I find it

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by Dammod

My post was more for general comment, not directly at you, I enjoy these conversations

I hear your points, however I think the best would be to have the same driver with the same car reach his best lap-times on stock suspension, then change over to properly setup coil-overs then repeat. That's the ideal but your comparison to Stiglet is interesting and useful nonetheless.

Considering the points you make, you may also be underestimating yourself - perhaps your driving ability is making up the difference you see in cornering speed etc.

Race teams on this forum almost all have upgraded coilovers, there must be a reason for this: this is another one of my thoughts about this.

As mentioned, when I have hit the track a good number of times more in my car I'll upgrade to coilovers. I have a laptime in mind that I would like to reach on stock suspension. When I get there, I'll upgrade them then report back. I'm very interested to see the results.

I'm 90% sure I will see a improvement, but because of how excellent the stock setup is, I don't think it will be as massive jump as it was in my Impreza but measureable nonetheless.


Having said all of this, another aspect of the suspension that is overlooked is swaybars. If all you are after is to eliminate bodyroll, your first point of call should be swaybars. People tend to jump straight to coilovers but there are also other aspects to look at, like bracing: having bracing above and below your shock absorbents and well as chassis bracing will help the stock suspension to their job better.

Lots to think about :-)

Yup, I agree with you in the context of advanced drivers, racing teams, and guys who know how to setup suspension properly. I'd be very interested (with a totally open mind) to see your results when you go to coilovers. However, there are no racing teams running 86's in SA. I'm confident to say that I have the most 86 seat time in the country, and I don't know if I'm ready for coilovers yet - I still need some convincing. But who knows - if I pop a damper, I'll probably do coilovers then.

But in the case of newbies to tracking (which is the context in which my initial comments were made), I really want to discourage the thought that "I buy coilovers, put them in myself, and suddenly I'll be magically faster", and then the newbie is surprised when his car rides really k*k, and he magically gets up close and personal with a tyre wall. It's a massive cost for little gain, with substantial risk if you don't know exactly what you're doing.

[evomike]

Originally Posted by FT_86_SM_GP

Agreed,

I understand where you are coming from,

Also understand that FishEagle was responding to my original question on a $900 BC BR Suspension or $300 spring question...

Your 'faster' suspension is surely not that set up / coilover option ?

my car is faster on bc's and some adjustable lca's than stock suspension yes

[FT_86_SM_GP]

Going "faster" requires driver skill as well

Here's an article that I read which changed my mind from getting BC BR coil overs

and instead spent a portion of that budgeted money on a set of Semi slicks... Which I had allot of fun with learning as a newbie (2nd track day)

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10643

Originally Posted by evomike

my car is faster on bc's and some adjustable lca's than stock suspension yes

[Dammod]

Originally Posted by Fish Eagle

Yup, I agree with you in the context of advanced drivers, racing teams, and guys who know how to setup suspension properly. I'd be very interested (with a totally open mind) to see your results when you go to coilovers. However, there are no racing teams running 86's in SA. I'm confident to say that I have the most 86 seat time in the country, and I don't know if I'm ready for coilovers yet - I still need some convincing. But who knows - if I pop a damper, I'll probably do coilovers then.

But in the case of newbies to tracking (which is the context in which my initial comments were made), I really want to discourage the thought that "I buy coilovers, put them in myself, and suddenly I'll be magically faster", and then the newbie is surprised when his car rides really k*k, and he magically gets up close and personal with a tyre wall. It's a massive cost for little gain, with substantial risk if you don't know exactly what you're doing.

I'll be happy to share that info once it eventually happens, but for now, like you, I'm perfectly happy on stock suspension.

I also struggle with the idea of replacing perfectly good, pretty much brand new shocks ...makes me "feel" better when I'm replacing shocks with say, 100 000km on them

Originally Posted by Moto-P

Stiff, low, suspension and stock tire is about the worst combination you can have in the FRS. Soft compliant suspension and mild drop and healthy set of fairly grippy tires is the only way to NOT ruin a great car, if this is a mild build. 235 width Yokohama S-Drive, Falken FK453, etc equivalent level grip tires, come to mind on a good balance to use for mild street suspension upgrade from most reputable firms.

Thanks for the link @FT_86_SM_GP , that pretty much sums up my feeling exactly.

Originally Posted by Moto-P

S
Soft + mid-height -20~30mm (or plenty of stroke built into coilver) + medium grip street tire = FUN, Fairly quick, easy to handle, and close to original setup.

[Fish Eagle]

Originally Posted by FT_86_SM_GP

and instead spent a portion of that budgeted money on a set of Semi slicks... Which I had allot of fun with learning as a newbie (2nd track day)

And look how fast (and safe) you were on your stock suspension with grippier tyres.
Your 1m21 at the Z is nothing short of amazing for someone with as little seat time as you've had, and that 1m21 would have made you quicker than the E92 M3 I was stuck behind in session 1 of Class A. In fact, 1m21 would have been quicker than most of Class A. I doubt if that Ferrari in session 2 of Class A was getting down to 1m21 either.

[Dammod]

Thanks to the Pruis tires the car comes with (yes we know the reason behind this), sticker tires are the number 1 upgrade the cars needs to achieve better laptimes...
...After the I am not sure (suspension-wise). I would love to see a comparison of the same car, with same stickier tires but with good upgraded coilovers vs upgraded swaybars...

[ShaunWRX]

Originally Posted by FT_86_SM_GP

Going "faster" requires driver skill as well

Here's an article that I read which changed my mind from getting BC BR coil overs

and instead spent a portion of that budgeted money on a set of Semi slicks... Which I had allot of fun with learning as a newbie (2nd track day)

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10643

Moto-P knows his stuff and he's one of the few guys online who's advice i'd take without much question when it comes to tuning. Thanks for the link!

[sav]

Originally Posted by Dammod

How did you find the coilovers effecting the wheel travel on the Fozzy - if at all?
That would be my only concern on undulating surfaces, that the wheel cant "droop" down enough to gain traction.

No issues at all, the 24mm rear swaybar is the only limiting factor and I keep forgetting to disconnect it. I've recently done De Wildt which is an awesome 4x4 course - made it through without having to be rescued.

[Dammod]

Originally Posted by sav

No issues at all, the 24mm rear swaybar is the only limiting factor and I keep forgetting to disconnect it. I've recently done De Wildt which is an awesome 4x4 course - made it through without having to be rescued.

Interesting, good to know, thanks Now if only there was a easy way (apart from stupid "bags") to adjust ride height.