*Another* JRSC review in combination with a full exhaust, daily driver

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by glamcem

no, I didn't bring these claims to begin with, I just found them a bit more unrealistic and tried to explain a few things..
no matter what you do, you won't be able to make up that TQ difference even if you downshift ( I don't know what that means from a roll-race) because the higher you start in the power band sooner you should shift to the next gear ..and as soon as you shift up to next gear a WRX will start pulling away from you so hard and say buh-bye..

In a drag race, would a turbodiesel truck with 865lb/ft tq win, or a E85 JRSC with 270lb/ft?

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

In a drag race, would a turbodiesel truck with 865lb/ft tq win, or a E85 JRSC with 270lb/ft?

OMFG will all you guys cut this shit out?

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

OMFG will all you guys cut this shit out?

I already have
after I noticed people are too concerned with "winning a debate" instead of "discussing and learning something new"

[jaycee842]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

OMFG will all you guys cut this shit out?

I'm enjoying it! Haha

Sent from my MotoE2 using Tapatalk

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by M_F

I have spoken with the engineers taking them to the track and been informed about the data gathered. Also been informed about the development process.

Top Gear review with Cosworth input:
"Are there plans for a faster one?

Cosworth’s cooling system is built to take 400bhp, and the company is yet to dabble in changing physical engine components. So we’d be surprised if something with 350bhp or more doesn’t appear in the coming year or two. With the better tyres and brakes sampled here, that doesn’t strike us as a silly idea at all. Bring it on."

I think Enigma just completed a track day as well recently. It may be good to see what he says.

All I am saying is that I just didn't think saying it was not suited for track usage when there was no basis to your claim just was not a good way to establish confirmed information on this message board.

Well it shows how efficient the cooler is over the rev range with the blower compressing the air at each RPM. I am sure each kit varies about how efficient it is on one pull. It would be good to get the other superchargers information on this to compare. Also, go check out a Cosworth Dyno video. They are held at each RPM. This may have not been, but that is how the dyno test all engines. The engine is loaded so much the headers are fully glowing.

**I am confused now is the glam person also the CSG Mike, because they are responding to the same information.

Where can I find said video?

https://www.youtube.com/user/press4cosworth/videos

Saying a cooling system is built to handle 400bhp is not confidence inspiring, considering the other existing supercharger kits ALL readily hit 400bhp with the addition of bolt-on breathing mods and E85. Quite frankly, I held Cosworth to a higher bar, and they fell short. Consider me a skeptic, but when what I was told in person by Cosworth reps is not followed through with the product release, I'm going to have doubts about any other claims made.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by M_F

I have spoken with the engineers taking them to the track and been informed about the data gathered. Also been informed about the development process.

Top Gear review with Cosworth input:
"Are there plans for a faster one?

Cosworth’s cooling system is built to take 400bhp, and the company is yet to dabble in changing physical engine components. So we’d be surprised if something with 350bhp or more doesn’t appear in the coming year or two. With the better tyres and brakes sampled here, that doesn’t strike us as a silly idea at all. Bring it on."

I think Enigma just completed a track day as well recently. It may be good to see what he says.

All I am saying is that I just didn't think saying it was not suited for track usage when there was no basis to your claim just was not a good way to establish confirmed information on this message board.

Well it shows how efficient the cooler is over the rev range with the blower compressing the air at each RPM. I am sure each kit varies about how efficient it is on one pull. It would be good to get the other superchargers information on this to compare. Also, go check out a Cosworth Dyno video. They are held at each RPM. This may have not been, but that is how the dyno test all engines. The engine is loaded so much the headers are fully glowing.

**I am confused now is the glam person also the CSG Mike, because they are responding to the same information.

maybe it's because we may have similar feedback from track days, we don't typically share the same ideas all the time though

thing you don't understand is Top Gear comments, or how the cooling system is built to take (400hp) doesn't necessarily mean the engine will be running fine with extended track use.. because first Top Gear tests or any magazine tests only take a snapshot of the system so you will see most magazines praise the PSS tires not because they last long but because it performs very good for a couple of laps and secondly Cosworth SC kits are prone to overheating and heat soak by design (not for mild track use in the above example but extended use) .. you would be surprised how many people blew their engines because of that, go search Cosworth supercharger in the Miata forums..

[strat61caster]

I'm starting to watch the FI game much more closely than before, I felt like the car had more power than I could take advantage of (which is proven every time a quick driver hops in and blows my times out of the water) but am realizing that there will come a day when I definitively want more.

For me, if I wanted a car that could beat this car or that car, the 86 is not the answer (the answer is a V8 Miata btw). I love this discussion about which kit has the reliability, if the Cosworth proves to be worth the premium hopefully I'll be able to pick it up. In the meantime we're coming up on 2 years of JRSC availability and my priorities are on a road legal kit that can take a beating.

~2 years ago if you asked most of the people here whether they would feel safe supercharging an FA20 without any internal modifications (remember a 12.5:1 compression ratio) putting 300hp at the crank even with a low boost of 9psi the answer would likely have been an overwhelming NO.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by M_F

Cosworth did not release their track testing video. Sorry. They are bad with marketing their development work. Typically all dev work is behind closed doors. They are typical british and because of exclusivity with OEMs, they cannot talk about 90% of the engineering they do for other marquees.

So, when they say 400bhp, it is not a 400bhp one run. It is a continued run. This is why they designed the kit for 400 and have continuously stated they are aiming for 380. Keep a buffer on everything they do.

I am not sure what your last sentence states or how they fell short. I am guessing you are saying it did not come out in time? That sometimes happens when you are doing development work and do not want to rush a product.

Also, this started by someone with no experience on a product stating a claim. I am stating a claim that may not have proof on the interwebs, but does have a company of over 50 years of engineering with F1 and OEMs. I am NOT putting down any other company. A great man once said, "It is better to be uninformed than misinformed." We can all learn something.

The place where they fell short is my expectation of them to follow through on their claims and promises, which I extensively discussed with Cosworth reps at SEMA last year. These are not third party individuals that represent Cosworth, but actual Cosworth employees.

Forgive me for being a skeptic, but the testing and results you claim to be happening have not surfaced at a consumer level, and without any published data or released product, I can only call it speculation at this point.

I'd love for Cosworth to have a competitive product on the market, but at this point, they do not.
You keep going back to that 400bhp figure, but a sustainable 400bhp is *NOT* competitive any longer. Two years ago, it would have been. At this point, the JRSC with E85 is already proven to provide 400bhp/325whp reliabily for the casual enthusiast.

I don't believe Cosworth is doing any OE work for *THIS* platform, and they've been awfully quiet.

You seem to have some knowledge that the general public does not. Can you shed some more light on Cosworth developments?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by M_F

What claims and promises did they fall short on?

Having the highest horsepower is not the end goal for all supercharger manufacturers. If that is the case, then no one outside of CARB states would be buying the Edelbrock unit or even considering it, because it is not the highest peak horsepower. It uses the same supercharger as the Cosworth if I have heard the model numbers correctly from each manufacturer. It's up to personal opinion. Same thing on PD SC vs centrifugal SC vs turbo. All different. The powerbands are different and they will perform differently. And at some tracks, the car with more midrange will perform better by possibly eliminating a shift and enabling a higher gear through a turn, whereas maybe the straight away is long enough that the super laggy turbo can make up for it with sheer HP.

While it may be true about OE work for this platform, they did tear down the engine to do finite analysis of each part and determine what can be achieved at each level and where the weaknesses lie.

It's good speaking with you gentleman about this topic. I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong at all. I try not to speak about topics I am not familiar with. I have just been very intrigued and really enjoy the supercharger comments. I have had a special place for the Cosworth brand from their participation in other motorsports so I really like following their developments. Just like how grimmspeed has a lot of information and engineering. It is fun to see developments. I also have some Cossie pistons in my vehicle, so I am slightly biased.

And that is why i understand the skepticism. That aligns with why I was frustrated and stopped being a lurker. It was the statement that you would not want to do track days because it is heat soaked. The same way that there is not data supporting it is a track focused supercharger should also go the other way saying there is nothing supporting the opposite.

Have a good one.

- CARB certification (was told "months; been 9 months now)
- Track testing results publication (non published)
- "further development, higher boost, engine internals" (none has happened that has been released, that I am aware of)

Cosworth does indeed have quite a legacy, but past performance is no guarantee of future results. The last truly groundbreaking car I see from them was the Escort Cosworth; that thing was a monster.

Look at Honda for example; they make some of the best production car engines, but are failing miserably at F1 powertrains. Likewise, I doubt Cosworth's Indy/F1 engineers are working on the FA20 supercharger project, and vice versa.

As I've said before, I'd love to see a truly developed Cosworth product on the market; competition is great for the consumer, but other than their initial supercharger release, nothing else has actually been released.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by M_F

While it may be true about OE work for this platform, they did tear down the engine to do finite analysis of each part and determine what can be achieved at each level and where the weaknesses lie.

You saying they've done this has as much weight as me saying they haven't.

Reading your post after this, we're all on the same side, we want the same thing, reliable, durable power out of an FA20 without spending tens of thousands of dollars.

I hope your right and all that Cosworth needs to make a big push in this arena is a motivated marketing rep willing to post some technical details. Until then we have to wait for 3rd party guys and company's to start posting stuff up, and for better or worse CSG is the loudest on this platform.

Don't get me wrong, you guys do great work and the rest of us would be in the dark about a ton of things without you, please don't take it as an insult, it's just there's not much of a second opinion around here primarily when it comes to FI or when discussing a complete setup that operates in harmony.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by M_F

I do understand Top Gear's comments.

To try and lump one engine's supercharger to another is a very weak argument as no two engines are the same, and to say their supercharger design is prone to heat soak is ludicrous and more so because it is not even based upon an accurate fact about the NC MX-5 kit!

Again, misinformation. The Miata engines blew because of the original tuner selected did not understand the miata ECU enough. The tune changed over time and it blew motors. This IS on the internet multiple places.

"A bit of history: originally marketed under a well-known name, the kit was pulled from the market due to problems with the original reprogramming software. The hardware, designed and manufactured by supercharger company Magnusson, was solid. So Flyin' Miata worked with tuning specialist Dynotronics to unleash the potential of this awesome kit. We use ECUtek software to access the brains of your car and essentially turn it into a factory supercharged model. As a result of all this, we can offer the top-shelf hardware with quality engine management for less than the original pricing."

Cosworth took back the affected motors and rebuilt them with upgraded parts FOC. I have never heard of another manufacturer doing that. They stand behind their name and their product.

Also, with regards to them being heat soaked, it is impossible to find that on the miata, because it is simply NOT TRUE.

"contrary to what most folks think, the SC does not seem to heat soak all that bad.

When measuring true boosted air temps, first lap recover rates are about the same as 5-6 laps later.

We will have some good data on this with Larry's car shortly, as he is installing one of our TMAP sensors and the calibration for it. This should be interesting data to compare with what we have from the track here in both the 2.0 and 2.5 versions of the SC"

"It doesn't look like heat soak is the primary issue. It looks like the primary issue is IATs at boost, IMHO.

Larry's solution will likely help with that I think. If there was a way to refrigerate the coolant, that would be ideal. You could spray liquid CO2 or N2O on the intercooler, but that would only work as long as your supply of CO2. Although it might help in autoX."

"We've raced it in the gruelling Targa Newfoundland, a full week of competition over a variety of rally stages. Since then, it sees regular track time on our own track and across the country."

Multiple accounts of this kit running without issues from the most reputable tuners in the Miata community.

I follow a lot of threads and builds on this forum and was hoping to have an intelligent, fact based conversation. I am not sure why the internet brings out the worst in people. Literally, I have just had false information with no backing being displayed here.

I have not attacked a single point that has been backed by specific information, only that someone with no experience on the matter was making a claim. This discredits all further comments unfortunately. In the engineering and racing world, it is very small and these types of things will linger on one's reputation.

Ok first of all I need to ask you:

Have you ever owned a Miata? what is your experience with both Miata and FT86 platform for extended track use and more importantly with FI? I actually know a local guy who blew his engine because of the Cosworth/FM supercharger, also owned a Miata and been following threads (hundreds of pages) on the issue..

I personally know the tuners on Miata forums as well as their feedback on each FI kits since I owned a Miata, and modified/got tuned and considered all the FI options including the FM kit then I ended up selling the Miata since it took forever to get the kit that I liked (KW Rotrex kit) and FT86 platform already had tons of FI options available at that time...

I need you to understand that you read those optimistic comments (possibly written by Dynotronics) and possibly don't know the shortcomings in more detail..

Also, I never said Cosworth SC kit will blow an FA20 motor or it will work just as bad as the Miata because that would be an assumption and assumptions are bad, just like your assumptions on the platform which you don't have previous experience with,

Cosworth will possibly work fine when not pushed hard since our ECU is more advanced compared to NC Miatas and do good job on pulling timing, does that mean it doesn't heat soak or overheat? or ideal for extended track use? absolutely not, it will do both because there is no Screw type Magnusson Supercharged that doesn't cause heat soak or overheating issues for extended track use non, nada, zip ...that's by design, keep in mind each FI solution has its advantages and disadvantages and it's not all red roses

even the OEM kits overheat at the track, take a look at the new C7 Z06, Camaro ZL1 (please don't tell me Cosworth or any other maker spends as much time and money on R&D as GM) , it sounds like you follow those magazines, I would highly suggest you to go read why many magazines had heating issues even after couple of laps with C7 Z06.. hence the reason why they increased their Oil temp warning messages to 320F they all suffer from those because heat exchanger and water cooled intercooler is not ideal for extended track use once the you overheat the water in the system the recovery is way worse than air-cooled ICs.. if you think about it a large SC that sits right above the engine block will be prone to heat soak more than a centrifugal type .. combined with the available boost in earlier RPMS and the higher IATs, good luck fighting with them.. higher IATs is the single most important contributor to those cooling issues which ultimately leads to power loss, these are just the facts, whether or not we accept ..

This has nothing to do with Cosworth's reputation/heritage of bringing well thought products but the technical shortcomings of the screw type SC, if I were to use DD my car or not planning to attend as many track days during the track season I would definitely consider getting one because low-end torque is fine and having an intake manifold designed to specifically handle the boost (vs OEM manifold) has its advantages, nobody denies that fact..centrifugal type units also has their shortcomings but looking at the other alternatives that's the best option "primarily" for extended track use.. ever wondered why so many Time attack guys or race teams prefer Rotrex and Turbo setups as opposed to PD types?

I think we need to be more realistic on our claims especially when there's no first hand experience or background on the topic..

Please do search and read more instead of jumping on conclusions

[ck-GT86]

Originally Posted by LucidMomentum

But you live in cali, that may not go over too well if you aren't going to keep it CARB legal.

Crossing my fingers that i dont ever get pulled over for inspection. I'll think of something when time comes for smog

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ck-GT86

Crossing my fingers that i dont ever get pulled over for inspection. I'll think of something when time comes for smog

If you're hoping to get lucky, I would recommend you look up what actually happens if you were to get popped and have to get reffed.

[ck-GT86]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

If you're hoping to get lucky, I would recommend you look up what actually happens if you were to get popped and have to get reffed.

I've heard