Motor Trend: 2016 Miata vs 2015 BRZ

[DarkSunrise]

It's far too simplistic to call one car's suspension better than another's based solely on the macpherson strut vs. double wishbone distinction. Conceptually double-wishbone suspension is better, but what's vastly more important for everyone from weekend track enthusiasts to the lower levels of professional racing is specific design/execution/tuning.

Take a look at Tony Rivera's FR-S in Pirelli World Challenge. He destroyed the TCA field at Road America, but was slower in a straight line than his main competitor (RX-8 on double-wishbones). The reason for his dominance was purely in handling. Yes the reason for a macpherson strut car's dominance over its double-wishbone competition was due to handling. And we're talking about an almost showroom stock series (TCA PWC) where the double-wishbone car had the benefit of years of development over the strut car.

Quote from Rivera after the race:

We have a real reliable little Scion that is fun to drive. It’s fun whether you are by yourself or in a pack. It reminds us why we do this. Believe it or not, this is probably the best track for this car. Even though it is the slowest one in the straightaway. The big misconception here that this is a big horsepower track. And a low-horsepower car can make up a lot at this track just because the entry to all of the straightaways is so great, speedwise. If you have a car that is dialed in handling wise, you can make up for quite a bit. There aren’t really any ‘point and shoot sections’ in this track."

Notice no mention of the inferior struts on his FR-S? And it's not like this was a fluke. Rivera's FR-S was making up time in the corners at Mid-Ohio as well.

This also matches my track experience with the FR-S. I've run down plenty of double-wishbone "magic cars" like the S2000 and RX-8 in corners. I've also been passed by some as well. From my experience, far more important than suspension type is tires and suspension tuning.

About tires, there are tests (other than the Tire Rack test) where the FR-S gained significant time switching from stock tires to max-performance category (MP). Over two seconds faster at Hockenheimring short. Huge time on the Nurburgring. A few other test have shown this as well, just need to search and read.

[Rampage]

Stop talking nonsense. You cannot make a "strut" car into a superior track and street car. It just cannot be done. A arms FTW!

You hear that Porsche? Your 911 and Cayman are $hit!



/sarcasm

[wootwoot]

I feel like all credibility was lost with the use of "magic cars."

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

It's far too simplistic to call one car's suspension better than another's based solely on the macpherson strut vs. double wishbone distinction. Conceptually double-wishbone suspension is better, but what's vastly more important for everyone from weekend track enthusiasts to the lower levels of professional racing is specific design/execution/tuning.

Take a look at Tony Rivera's FR-S in Pirelli World Challenge. He destroyed the TCA field at Road America, but was slower in a straight line than his main competitor (RX-8 on double-wishbones). The reason for his dominance was purely in handling. Yes the reason for a macpherson strut car's dominance over its double-wishbone competition was due to handling. And we're talking about an almost showroom stock series (TCA PWC) where the double-wishbone car had the benefit of years of development over the strut car.

Not at all convinced, to be honest. The RX8 is a bigger and heavier car than the FR-S. I'd say that played a large part in that particular scenario. The RX8 actually handles very well for its size.

I put more stock in time attack, where nearly all of the top competitors are using double wishbone equipped cars (factory or converted) to get maximum traction.

[Entroper]

Lots of back and forth here.

It shouldn't be controversial that double wishbones are better at controlling a tire under load than MacPherson struts. That's just true. Is it the only thing that matters in suspension design? Absolutely not. The twins are a good example of this, they come with one of the best out-of-the-box setups on the market. Better than my HardS NB, which is the second "tightest" of all factory Miata setups behind the 04-05 Mazdaspeed Miata. So no, double wishbones aren't everything, even if they are better.

Of course, if we're talking about taking advantage of gripper tires than stock, I can also take my NB down to the alignment shop and set camber and toe to whatever I want at all four corners, no additional parts needed. And there's travel to consider. It's not just about body roll -- maybe you run a setup that only compresses 3 inches at maximum steady state grip, but what happens when you hit a bump in the middle of a corner? How many more inches until you're in the bump stop?

Technical arguments aside, I don't agree with the characterization that Toyota/Subaru were trying to go the cheapest route with an "unsophisticated" setup, I think they were making a calculated tradeoff. Cost was part of that tradeoff, but compactness was likely a more important part. And they got pretty good results, even if they might not be the best possible results (and good luck defining what that would be).

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

I put more stock in time attack, where nearly all of the top competitors are using double wishbone equipped cars (factory or converted) to get maximum traction.

Time attack? A bit like watching NASCAR qualifying. Those cars are set up to run about 3-4 laps at a time for one ultimate lap. Hardly a good comparison for street cars. I put no stock in time attack.

[LucidMomentum]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

I put more stock in time attack, where nearly all of the top competitors are using double wishbone equipped cars (factory or converted) to get maximum traction.

Originally Posted by Rampage

Time attack? A bit like watching NASCAR qualifying. Those cars are set up to run about 3-4 laps at a time for one ultimate lap. Hardly a good comparison for street cars. I put no stock in time attack.

Ladies and gentleman, what most of FT86Club's debates end up being.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

Not at all convinced, to be honest. The RX8 is a bigger and heavier car than the FR-S. I'd say that played a large part in that particular scenario. The RX8 actually handles very well for its size.

The current PWC rules have the FR-S running extra weight/ballast. I think the final difference between the two comes out to ~150 lbs., which isn't nearly enough to explain the level of handling dominance the FR-S had, especially with its horsepower deficit on straights. The FR-S was running 2+ seconds/lap faster than the RX-8 and finished some of the races more than 20 seconds ahead.

If you're seriously arguing that a macpherson strut car can't out-handle a double wishbone car, I think you're putting way too much faith in wishbones.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by LucidMomentum

Ladies and gentleman, what most of FT86Club's debates end up being.

Philosophical disagreements? Arguments? Flame wars? Spewing of nonsensical "facts"?

The FT86 forum does not have an exclusive patent on that. Read any car forum. Scratch that......read any internet forum. It is what makes the cyber world go round.

[Captain Snooze]

Tl,dr.
Buy one or buy the other. Buy both. Don't buy at all or buy something completely different. *shrugs*

[SUB-FT86]

Porsche doesn't even use DWB suspension and the funny thing is they could've used it since there is no freaking engine up front and their cars are already priced astronomically. The Z has DWB yet I have mostly read how the Z feels like a 2 door lower version of muscle car(sledgehammer) in its handling feel compared to the Cayman S and its scalpel like abilities. That should tell you something.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUhLXvxlQR4"]Toyota GT86 / Scion FR-S v Nissan 370Z v Used Porsche Cayman S - /CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - YouTube[/ame]

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Porsche doesn't even use DWB suspension and the funny thing is they could've used it since there is no freaking engine up front and their cars are already priced astronomically. The Z has DWB yet I have mostly read how the Z feels like a 2 door lower version of muscle car(sledgehammer) in its handling feel compared to the Cayman S and its scalpel like abilities. That should tell you something.

1. Porsche DOES use wishbones on some cars. Look at the racecars, like the 911 RSR. The reason they don't use it on others is more due to tradition (and cost, obviously) than any real engineering consideration. Don't forget they have some of the highest markup of any car manufacturer out there.

2. The Z is a big, somewhat heavy, front-biased FR coupe. Much different than a mid-engine Cayman. No point in making any direct comparison to them. Also, its "double wishbone suspension" is a bit different... kinda like how the FR-S & BRZ are advertised as having double wishbones in the rear but don't. The Z has a sort of L-shaped double control arm setup.

[Entroper]

Yes, the Cayman doesn't have its engine up front and in the way. That also means it doesn't have the weight of the engine up front, so the front suspension has less to do.

We can make apples to oranges comparisons, or find examples of great handling cars and poor handling cars on any suspension all day long, but we're just going to miss the point.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

1. Porsche DOES use wishbones on some cars. Look at the racecars, like the 911 RSR. The reason they don't use it on others is more due to tradition (and cost, obviously) than any real engineering consideration. Don't forget they have some of the highest markup of any car manufacturer out there.

2. The Z is a big, somewhat heavy, front-biased FR coupe. Much different than a mid-engine Cayman. No point in making any direct comparison to them. Also, its "double wishbone suspension" is a bit different... kinda like how the FR-S & BRZ are advertised as having double wishbones in the rear but don't. The Z has a sort of L-shaped double control arm setup.

It still doesn't make sense though. Porsche is the type of company where they are never worried about cost. They can add 10hp and the price rises 4k and people still buy them. Cost and tradition doesn't sound like the answer to me. Not for a company that believes there is no other substitute.

Secondly the Z is supposed to have a superior suspension to even the FRS yet critics aren't to thrilled with it handling wise. Hell even though the ND is lighter there will be folks who prefer the 86 setup better as the video proves. The video also makes me feel that weight loss is what made the difference for them favoring the ND which makes sense.