FIXED-CX Racing sandwich plate literally pouring out oil

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by PST

I'm glad you got it figured out, but it's always wise to consider the failure mode of the parts you're putting on the car. If a spoiler or something cosmetic fails, it's not a big deal. If your oil cooler fails and vomits all your oil out over the road, the first indication something has gone wrong might be a rod exiting the block if you don't catch it in time.

Things like an oil cooler aren't "go-fast" parts, they're insurance. They're there to keep the engine oil cool, so it makes sense to spend a little more money on keeping your engine intact and protecting your investment.

As I am aware. This is my first time buying crucial parts from a discount company. You get what you pay for, if you're lucky. I have read of brand name stuff leaking too, incidentally. Just because you pay a high price doesn't guarantee there will be no issues, and in this case other companys could also short ship AN fitting gaskets too, but hopefully they don't. Had I spotted this stuff immediately I'd likely have held off on the install. Chalk it up to experience. On the positive side, the 19 row oil cooler should be more effective than an 11 or 13 from other makes that apparently others have reported doesn't quite cool enough. Also the mounting setup didn't require the plastic front under cover, mine is removed to allow for a really oversize intercooler. The hoses and fittings look OK to do the job and the spacer and sandwich were pretty nicely machined for offshore product. The heat exchanger is plain aluminum, not anodized but I can't even see it sitting behind my intercooler. I'm pretty confident that besides the mixed up parts it will be OK. Did I mention a nicely positioned mounting setup for the heat exchanger? YMMV.
How would you like it if everything cost you 50% more with tax, shipping and duties? Exactly.
Lots of people counciled me on this thread, butI am capable enough that I trust my judgement whether this product looks safe to use.

[GSpeed]

I'm glad you got it worked out. I apologize if I came across as condescending, that wasn't my intent. I was more or less agreeing with what you'd already figured out.

[JEDI]

Sounds like things are looking up. Throw some pics up when you get the set up you looking for. From here on out I'm sure you will be inspecting more closely when parts arrive. We are here to learn more about these great cars and sorry if I seemed like I was being a douche. You seem motivated to figure things out for yourself, which IMO is much more fun.

[wbradley]

Update: Permatex Red not 100% effective. Removed, cleaned and applied Permeatex High Temperature thread seal last night. Takes 72 hours to cure. Will update with results but I am optimistic as I am using it for outlet fittings and sensor hole bolts as well. According to product description this is the right product. for the job. The product description claims that it will withstand up to pipe burst pressure when fully cured so I will wait a week if I have to. In this case it needs to hold up to 70 PSI. I can see the drying time will be super slow based on the bit of product pushed to the end of the thread which is still wet 15 hours after application. Will update with results in a few days.
Haven't received any replacement parts from CX Racing as of yet.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by wbradley

According to product description this is the right product. for the job..

Almost, but not quite, entirely the WRONG product for seals.
(band-aid on exxon valdez like)

You are trying to glue something that was never intended to be glued.
How can there be a "right product"?

And the port fittings were leaking and you blame the manufacturer for your failure to use thread sealant?

Originally Posted by wbradley

The product description claims that it will withstand up to pie burst pressure when fully cured so I will wait a week if I have to. In this case it needs to hold up to 70 PSI. I can see the drying time will be super slow based on the bit of product pushed to the end of the thread which is still wet 15 hours after application. Will update with results in a few days.
Haven't received any replacement parts from CX Racing as of yet.

This is such a simple device, that it should not have taken more than 10 seconds to find the "flaw" or "manufacturing defect" that was causing the leak (if there IS such a problem)
I am betting that it is 100% operator error.

[wbradley]

@stugray, I don't understand your points.

The threaded parts of the AN fittings for oil in and out lines seeped slightly between the threads. Also, the bolt plugs for the 2 sensor holes holes appeared to leak a whole lot more. Their hard gaskets did nothing at all and I only received one gasket for the AN, when I clearly needed 2.

A high temperature/high pressure sealant seems like the sensible remedy. That is, provided that the gaps between the threads arent too large to repair, in which case I could have someone mig weld them.

This product is NOT a glue, but actually a lubricant, like a liquid Teflon. After a lengthy cure time, it seals the gaps between the threads eliminating a pressure leak. The fittings can still be removed using regular hand tools afterward. It is rated to withstand up to pipe burst pressures and max 400 Celcius.

The Permatex product description claims many advantages over Teflon tape which I prefer not to use.

And how exactly is there operator error? I know how to torque a bolt/collar.

My next option is to just buy a Mocal sandwich, but I prefer not to spend $300 CD$ additional if I can avoid it. I am the type that likes to fix things and I have been very successful and self taught in the past. I have about 24, 90's era pinball machines, electrical, mechanical, and cosmetic restoration work under my belt. Selling 3 of them paid 3/4 of the price of the car. I moved to toying with this car and learning automotive work as a new hobby. I dont believe in "hack" repairs and since my car is off the road now I have plenty of time for trial and error.

If you have expertise in this matter, rather than acting arrogant and criticizing me, why don't you be a nice person and suggest the proper action to be taken.

[wbradley]

Waited 72 hours for thread sealant to cure and it still leaks at the 2 sensor plug bolts (probably too loose a fit at the thread) as well as at the 1 male AN fitting where it enters the sandwich. Garbage Chinese junk. They said a week ago they were sending me a pressure tested sandwich. If it arrives as it should this week I will test it but likely I will just buy the Mocal sandwich. I hope the AN-12 fittings from Mocal fit the thread on the female hose ends I have. The hoses look OK as does the cooler itself. I guess there's no second guessing with this kind of stuff. First and last time buying unknown brand product

[Spartarus]

Hi,

I've been watching this thread unfold much like someone would watch an interstate crash turn into a pile-up, and I thought I'd chime in. I'm not going to be arrogant, but I have advice.

I'd like to start by saying I built my oil cooler custom and have had no issues. The Mocal plate works great if that's what you end up using. Make sure you get one with a spacer. That said, doesn't look like a terrible kit, don't call it cheap Chinese junk yet. Their willingness to send you tested replacement parts is more than I expected out of a product that's so cheap... Don't dog them too hard yet.

Anyway, here's my insight.

There are 3 failure points on each AN fitting on the plate, as there are 3 threads between plate and hose.

Plate _1_ AN male _2_ AN female hose fitting _3_ collar/hose

Thread #3 (the fitting collar on the hose) doesn't sound like it's leaking from your report. Good. This is the only one that was assembled at the factory.
Thread #2 should always be sealed with a non-drying PTFE sealant, but you said that one's not leaking. Good, it shouldn't if you seal it.
Thread #1 sounds like the leaking thread from your description. You said only 1 of these fittings came with an O-ring. OK, no matter what you seal it with, this will ALWAYS leak without an O-ring. Doesn't matter the brand. The threads are loose; parallel threads will NEVER hold pressure. That's why it has an O-ring. If you installed it without the O-ring, it will leak NO MATTER WHAT.

On to the plate with the holes for oil temp and pressure. These will be parallel thread. The senders for oil pressure and temp use tapered thread. The progressive mismatch in thread pitch is how they seal. you have to use PTFE sealant as well. The bolts that the plate came with are almost definitely NOT tapered thread. This means they will ALWAYS leak without a proper O-ring or gasket. You said they provided hard gaskets. Without looking at them I can't tell you if they're garbage, but I'm betting they are. Just go to a hardware store and buy some appropriately sized brass plugs in 1/8"MIP thread, screw them in with PTFE sealant, and those holes are done leaking. If you decided not to use the gaskets, the supplied plug bolts will not seal no matter what kind of sealant you used.

TL : DR All parallel threads are loose fit regardless of brand, that's why they have gaskets and O-rings. The ONLY kind of threads that will seal without gaskets are tapered threads, and they still need PTFE sealant. The ONLY exception to this rule is AN threads. Even then, it's not the threads that form the seal. The flare on the end of an AN fitting is the reason it seals without an O-ring. This flare is cut at exactly 37 degrees, and forms a metal-to-metal seal with the corresponding flare inside the AN female fitting.

You wouldn't know this stuff unless you had F*cked it up in the past. That's how I learned it - F*cking it up. All of the leaks, with the exception of the missing O-ring, sound like user error. Even then, trying to use it without an O-ring and expecting it to seal is still user error. That's not condescending, you admitted you are still learning. That's what the forum is for.

[wbradley]

Spartacus, thanks for the first bit of helpful advice, I really appreciate it.
In a last ditch attempt, I found an old roll of PTFE tape that came with an air compressor for the fittings. It is supposed to hold about 100 PSI gas pressure, not sure about temperature. I resealed everything. Guess what, it appears to have worked, for now. I will pick up a few gaskets shortly and look into fuel resistant tape I saw at the store to solidify things. I am not impressed that after 2 shipments I was still short gaskets and I wanted to avoid using tape. The PTFE paste sealant seemed as though it never cured BTW. I might have to retape eventually but it looks like I have seen progress.

[stugray]

You should never need thread sealant on an fittings. If you have a POS an fitting, you can buy special seals for them. I have NEVER needed any kind of seal OR thread sealer on an an fitting. If you need thread sealant you are doing something wrong.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by stugray

You should never need thread sealant on an fittings. If you have a POS an fitting, you can buy special seals for them. I have NEVER needed any kind of seal OR thread sealer on an an fitting. If you need thread sealant you are doing something wrong.

The male inlet sides of the AN adaptors to the sandwich plate and the sensor plugs are the sources of the leaks and they arent AN. All AN connections to the hoses work fine. I still need a few gaskets but upon testing revving right to redline I literally am able to suck maybe a drop of oil from the oil filter tray with a mini pipette. With gaskets that should reduce to zero. I'm maybe not the fastest learner, not the slowest either. I read that Teflon tape wasn't ideal and didn't anticipate needing it from the get go. The PTFE paste was useless, possibly due to the missing gaskets and hence the absence of a true anaerobic environment for curing.

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by wbradley

The male inlet sides of the AN adaptors to the sandwich plate and the sensor plugs are the sources of the leaks and they arent AN. All AN connections to the hoses work fine. I still need a few gaskets but upon testing revving right to redline I literally am able to suck maybe a drop of oil from the oil filter tray with a mini pipette. With gaskets that should reduce to zero. I'm maybe not the fastest learner, not the slowest either. I read that Teflon tape wasn't ideal and didn't anticipate needing it from the get go. The PTFE paste was useless, possibly due to the missing gaskets and hence the absence of a true anaerobic environment for curing.

Ok, clarification. The threads to the sandwich plate are not AN thread, it's probably 10mmx1.25 thread. Only 1 side of that AN adapter has AN thread, the other side is almost definitely metric parallel thread.

AN thread always has that 37 degree flare. If that's absent, it isn't AN thread.

PTFE sealant is non-curing, non-drying type sealant. It didn't cure because it doesn't cure. (At least all the brands of PTFE I've ever used. Never have a cure/dry time, always specifically labeled as non-drying)

Stu is right, AN flare fittings should not need sealant, as the metal-to-metal seal at the flare will not leak, and if it does, sealant on the threads isn't going help. Sorry, I seal them to prevent vibration from working them loose.

If you don't put an O-ring or gasket on the 4 threads that need them (all 4 threads into the sandwich plate) that teflon tape will probably let go sooner rather than later. If it doesn't, it's nothing short of a miracle. I'd never rely on it.

[wbradley]

Any idea what type of oil rings to use? Regular Viton donut shaped? Copper washer type?

If I dont get them with tha parts I was supposedly was sent, I am going to get some.

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by wbradley

Any idea what type of oil rings to use? Regular Viton donut shaped? Copper washer type?

If I dont get them with tha parts I was supposedly was sent, I am going to get some.

For the radius port fitting that the AN fitting screws in to, just a regular viton donut o-ring.

For the pressure/temp sender ports, clean the leaked oil out thoroughly, and use a copper crush washer, or the "hard gaskets" they provided. Do not use sealant with these seal rings. You said the provided "hard gaskets" (seal rings) did nothing. Did you use sealant? because thy will leak if you did. Either way, if you've already tightened them, they're likely useless anyway, as they are not reuseable. I'd try some copper crush washers first, but if they don't work, Oil pressure and temp senders use 1/8 NPT thread. If you go to a hardware store they'll probably be labeled 1/8"MIP. Just plain old brass plugs.