Why Supercharged Instead of Turbo?

[Namuna]

Originally Posted by King Tut

How many laps of boost will you get out of that bad boy?

Originally Posted by LucidMomentum

Well it recharges the battery after every pull, so you get 90 seconds of 5 PSi of boost and then 20-30 seconds of recharge time.

If you use the Procede controller, it's always on. More like having a beefier engine.

Yup, and as previously stated, this is my daily driver, I will eventually take my precious out to the track but it won't be on a regular basis. The on-demand oomph that flips the script from our usual torque-dip into instant torque-peak that the ESC promises, is exactly what the doctor ordered (for me anyway).

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Cost, plain and simple. It'll be way more expensive to get a custom kit fabbed up than to just buy the JRSC kit that gives me the same hp I want.

Get a quote from a shop you maybe surprised how close it will be at least for down here in south Florida. I can get a custom kit with tune for about 4k.
Food for thought.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

That usually happens when too large of a turbo is run. We've done extensive tracking (in several countries!), and mid-corner control is not an issue, because the turbo is spooling from 2000rpm onwards, not 4000+ onwards.

A proper turbo setup works great at the track, just as a proper sc setup would. But it's always easy to pick out examples of each that don't.

We're not saying the power delivery is not there; it most certainly is. What we're saying is that a turbo will ALWAYS have a spoolup time, regardless of how high your RPM is.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by wparsons

I wish someone made a GT25x based kit (or similar sized EFR turbo). I don't want 350+whp, and don't want that much headroom just adding lag. No e85 up here, and no interest in a lower compression block. A solid 260-270whp would be perfect, and for off the shelf solutions the supercharger kits are the best option.

I have a thing for the GTX28...

[AVOturboworld]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

We're not saying the power delivery is not there; it most certainly is. What we're saying is that a turbo will ALWAYS have a spoolup time, regardless of how high your RPM is.

That's what you are saying, certainly.

And what the person I was quoting was talking about was mid-corner power delivery, claiming it was inconsistent with the turbo setups. But what would we know, we've only been turbocharging race cars since 1979.

I totally get people having a preference for on their power delivery. Even if it's one that you have to wait for redline for max performance. But I think it's been proven in nearly every racing series it hasn't been banned from, turbochargers perform quite well in circuit racing.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

That's what you are saying, certainly.

And what the person I was quoting was talking about was mid-corner power delivery, claiming it was inconsistent with the turbo setups. But what would we know, we've only been turbocharging race cars since 1979.

I totally get people having a preference for on their power delivery. Even if it's one that you have to wait for redline for max performance. But I think it's been proven in nearly every racing series it hasn't been banned from, turbochargers perform quite well in circuit racing.

It's not consistent, not at readily attainable street car levels.

ALS, electric spool, KERS assisted, etc all are apples to oranges. You cannot deny the physics behind the fact that when you transition from off to on throttle, the turbo needs time to spool up to build boost. If this fact did not exist, there would be no use for centrifugal superchargers; a centrifugal supercharger is, at a very basic level, a "always spooled" turbocharger.

You've been selling turbochargers for YEARS, and you simply do not seem to understand the concept of transient response.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tran...20turbocharger

I don't think its coincidence that the majority of the matches on the first few pages are all about improving the transient response of turbochargers.

[AVOturboworld]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It's not consistent, not at readily attainable street car levels.

ALS, electric spool, KERS assisted, etc all are apples to oranges. You cannot deny the physics behind the fact that when you transition from off to on throttle, the turbo needs time to spool up to build boost. If this fact did not exist, there would be no use for centrifugal superchargers; a centrifugal supercharger is, at a very basic level, a "always spooled" turbocharger.

Why are you transitioning off to on throttle mid-corner?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

Why are you transitioning off to on throttle mid-corner?

Because I want to accelerate out of the corner?

[AVOturboworld]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Because I want to accelerate out of the corner?

Ah, see. Preference. It's how you drive the car. I feather the throttle mid-corners, and drive with the throttle as well as the brake.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

Ah, see. Preference. It's how you drive the car. I feather the throttle mid-corners, and drive with the throttle as well as the brake.

I don't see the difference; we're both on throttle mid-corner.

Are you magically on-throttle before you even enter the corner? Or are you on-throttle immediately after you enter the corner? If this is the case, then you're not entering the corner as fast as the car can go. Are there exceptions to this? Yes, but those are the occasional exceptions, not the generalizations we speak with for this discussion.

You're needing to feather the throttle in the corner perfectly illustrates my point; you're feathering because that sudden, unpredictable surge of power, will destabilize your car, mid-corner. If the power is predictable, then there is no need to feather; the driver can select the exact amount of output he wants with a precise pedal position. No need or reason to feather.

[JS + BRZ]

[AVOturboworld]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

IAre you magically on-throttle before you even enter the corner? Or are you on-throttle immediately after you enter the corner? If this is the case, then you're not entering the corner as fast as the car can go. Are there exceptions to this? Yes, but those are the occasional exceptions, not the generalizations we speak with for this discussion.

In a 4 hour enduro race I participated in, we had 4 different drivers. One of which was a left foot braker, one who was a slow-in, fast out driver. Over their 30 minute stints, they were within 10's of a second of each other, lap after lap. The lesson I took from that a long time ago is that you work with the driving style that works for you.

I love your absolutism when it comes to driving, but I also know that's just your opinion, not a fact.

[CSG Mike]

Let me use the most painfully obvious example available.

Lets say you're going through the gears, accelerating at WOT. You hit redline in 2nd gear, and shift to third, with a traditional manual gearbox. Is there a delay before you get full power in that next gear, short of using a WOT box or power shifting? That, is transient response.

It's also why an automatic Porsche Turbo is faster than the manual; the turbos don't need to respool between shifts.

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

In a 4 hour enduro race I participated in, we had 4 different drivers. One of which was a left foot braker, one who was a slow-in, fast out driver. Over their 30 minute stints, they were within 10's of a second of each other, lap after lap. The lesson I took from that a long time ago is that you work with the driving style that works for you.

I love your absolutism when it comes to driving, but I also know that's just your opinion, not a fact.

I don't see your point. An endurance race is about consistency and finishing the most laps without breaking the car. Standard endurance strategy is to pick a pace, and to stick to that pace for the duration of the race, unless circumstances dictate otherwise (e.g. close to a higher spot on podium towards the end, and picking up the pace). It sounds to me as if the strategy was well executed, and the difference in driving styles, skill level, and ultimately a "qualifying lap pace", were not manifested due to strategy. The drivers performed their tasks well.

[AVOturboworld]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Lets say you're going through the gears, accelerating at WOT. You hit redline in 2nd gear, and shift to third, with a traditional manual gearbox. Is there a delay before you get full power in that next gear, short of using a WOT box or power shifting? That, is transient response.

I understand the concept, I disagree with your overstating how bad it is. You attempt to make it sound like it's uncontrollable in corners, yet there is an amazing about of turbocharged race cars at the circuit that do just fine. Do they have the same transient response of the supercharger? No. Does it affect their ability to get to the podium? No.

I don't see your point. An endurance race is about consistency and finishing the most laps without breaking the car. Standard endurance strategy is to pick a pace, and to stick to that pace for the duration of the race, unless circumstances dictate otherwise (e.g. close to a higher spot on podium towards the end, and picking up the pace). It sounds to me as if the strategy was well executed, and the difference in driving styles, skill level, and ultimately a "qualifying lap pace", were not manifested due to strategy. The drivers performed their tasks well.

In this particular case, they were going all out. We were behind, and both had to make up time (thanks Peter!).

What my point was, different race drivers have different approaches, all the way up to F1 level. Schumacher liked his car set up one way, other drivers liked their cars set up another way.