Would you prefer that the FRS had a "real" engine?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by wbradley

The main one being the relative difficulty accessing the spark plugs.

BTW I am guessing the reason it isn't an FA25 is just the times. Fuel economy across the fleet matters AKA CAFE.

Two points:
1. The average 86 will have it's spark plugs touched fewer than 10x in it's life (60k mile service interval, plus a handful of anomalies such as coil packs burning out), is a slightly difficult service once every 5 years (on average) really that troublesome?

2. Many countries tax engines based on displacement, primarily Europe and Japan, a 2.5L would be much more expensive there relative to the performance it offers, a 2.5L would actually be a U.S. special in all likelihood (see the new Miata and the 1.5L & 2.0L liter engines offered in that) and the costs for carrying two production motors would likely be distributed on both models.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

1. The average 86 will have it's spark plugs touched fewer than 10x in it's life (60k mile service interval, plus a handful of anomalies such as coil packs burning out), is a slightly difficult service once every 5 years (on average) really that troublesome?

That's every two years for me, since I drive the car 30K miles per year.

That's also a little irritating to those of us who grew up wrenching on older cars where you could pull a plug to help diagnose a problem. I get that you're supposed to be able to rely on the computer these days to tell you what's wrong, but it just feels unnatural not to be able to inspect the plugs.

When mine comes due later in the year, I'm just going to let the dealer do it. For the 120K mile service, I may buy the engine lifting tool and do it myself, depending on how I'm using the car at that time.

[Tromatic]

I dislike the FR-S because of the physical characteristics of cooling metal.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by Tromatic

I dislike the FR-S because of the physical characteristics of cooling metal.

YEAH! Fuchin Engineers arent worth a crap if they cant figure out how design things out of metal that do not expand & contract with temperature!

[Mx5racer]

The RX8 with a rotary
I got 16 miles per gallon
Minimal horsepower with little torque
Major engine problems before 100k miles

That was a car that would have been better with a "real" engine

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Mx5racer

The RX8 with a rotary
I got 16 miles per gallon
Minimal horsepower with little torque
Major engine problems before 100k miles

That was a car that would have been better with a "real" engine

Really? What was the major engine problems?

[Big D Design]

Love this engine. Torque dip is for commuter driving. Power at 2200 to 3200rpm is superior to any 2.0L I have driven. S2000 sucks at that rpm band. I always have had trouble with 4's and lugging at these rpms. The boxer does actually accelerate at these rpms and gets amazing gas mileage using this lower register.


Cosworth is the answer to anything you don't like about this engine. Forget about the exhaust upgrade, just put on the supercharger. I don't understand why there isn't at least 100 people with a Cosworth SC by now. I know it is expensive, but the cooling built into the unit is so good. For a warm running engine bay this is a way for the engine not to blow up. Please save your money and when you get tired of the 200hp, upgrade. The resale of your car or SC is a no brainer. I would buy a used 86 if I knew it had only Cosworth. But I would not get near a used 86 any other FI. If anyone in Northern or Central Florida has a Cosworth SC, I would love to come for a ride with ya. It looks to be in my future as a mod.

[Chaetagnath]

It's got plenty of power...

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

That's every two years for me, since I drive the car 30K miles per year.

That's also a little irritating to those of us who grew up wrenching on older cars where you could pull a plug to help diagnose a problem. I get that you're supposed to be able to rely on the computer these days to tell you what's wrong, but it just feels unnatural not to be able to inspect the plugs.

When mine comes due later in the year, I'm just going to let the dealer do it. For the 120K mile service, I may buy the engine lifting tool and do it myself, depending on how I'm using the car at that time.

What problems are you looking to diagnose with the spark plugs? A misfire? The sensors are infinitely better at detecting rich/lean conditions than plugs are and it's not like you can just tweak a screw on a carb anymore, you'd be changing ECU tables.

Furthermore the spark plugs can be changed with just some ratchet extensions and joints, no need to move the engine:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85644

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

What problems are you looking to diagnose with the spark plugs? A misfire? The sensors are infinitely better at detecting rich/lean conditions than plugs are and it's not like you can just tweak a screw on a carb anymore, you'd be changing ECU tables.

You're absolutely right. I know that intellectually, yet it's still hard to let go of the idea of pulling plugs and actually looking at/smelling/tasting them. It's hard to get used to trusting the computer to tell me what's going on in there without being able to see it for myself. It also sucks to not be able to get a scope in there easily to look around.

Part of that comes from driving a Jeep with a computer that will keep the stock 4.0L and even my 4.6L stroker running when many other engines would have long since quit. You can have a pretty rich or lean condition and still not throw a code. I ran mine with a massive vacuum leak for a while with no mixture or vacuum codes at all, just a weird idle that I attributed to lope from the cam. I just happened to notice that a cap was missing and that the idle smoothed out slightly if I put my finger over the fitting.

That's 18 year old technology. I think the Subaru would just stop if that happened.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Furthermore the spark plugs can be changed with just some ratchet extensions and joints, no need to move the engine:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85644

Yeah, I read that when it was originally posted. Third sentence in:

"If you have big hands, this may be very hard to do."

I can tell you right now it will be impossible for me.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Yeah, I read that when it was originally posted. Third sentence in:

"If you have big hands, this may be very hard to do."

I can tell you right now it will be impossible for me.

[Hotrodheart]

Originally Posted by wbradley

NOHOME has an interesting style, starting a heated debate by stating a negative opinion about one or certain aspects of this vehicle.
I agree with him that I wish there weren't certain tradeoffs with this design. The main one being the relative difficulty accessing the spark plugs.
However I own 2 cars with this engine and I like a lot of things about it. In my WRX it has gobs of torque really low down. But is isn't a screamer high up.
In the FR-S it has less torque lower but you can rev it up high like my Integras did. I like that it is a high compression engine (not sure why, LOL). I like the lowered centre of gravity. I am sure it helps quite a bit in the WRX but Ive never driven something fairly similar like an EVOLUTION to compare and I am thinking they counter this with stiffer suspension. I also like the fact that partly due to the COG the FR-S has virtually zero roll with stock, reasonably compliant suspension.
Now, with the HKS blower installed, the car maintains the same character, not a V8 Mustang down low and once going rushes to the redline with far more urgency. But due to gearing and other factors its only much faster from maybe 40 km/h up.
I like the unique look of the engine, but is not as pretty if you remove the FA20 plastic cover. Thats one cheap looking intake manifold but I'm sure it does the trick and they really needed to control the BOM (bill of manufacturing). Yeah I wish the car was as solid as a 70's era Mercedes but lets be realistic. Its a nice car for the money as a sports car which is really a unicorn under a certain price point nowadays. If you wish to put a few more bucks into it for sure it is a much better car. If you need to put in too much extra just buy a stock Porsche, it will hold its resale far better. It is what it is. Love it, hate it, anything but indifferent on this forum. BTW I am guessing the reason it isn't an FA25 is just the times. Fuel economy across the fleet matters AKA CAFE.
Thanks NOHOME for getting us talking.
Next up, he tells us why he hates chocolate and pizza but he ca't put his finger on why.

So this is like a troll and sub-troll thing, eh?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Part of that comes from driving a Jeep with a computer that will keep the stock 4.0L and even my 4.6L stroker running when many other engines would have long since quit. You can have a pretty rich or lean condition and still not throw a code. I ran mine with a massive vacuum leak for a while with no mixture or vacuum codes at all, just a weird idle that I attributed to lope from the cam. I just happened to notice that a cap was missing and that the idle smoothed out slightly if I put my finger over the fitting.

Oh I've had the same experience (Ford F150, '00 era, would just shut down on the freeway, dying coilpacks were the culprit) but again, how would you diagnose that with sparkplugs that would be superior to reading the Air Fuel ratios out of the exhaust? And a vacuum leak would be diagnosed the same with or without access to spark plugs right?

Originally Posted by extrashaky

"If you have big hands, this may be very hard to do."

I can tell you right now it will be impossible for me.

No need to brag...

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

And a vacuum leak would be diagnosed the same with or without access to spark plugs right?

Not necessarily. Pulling the plugs and noting a lean condition would be considered along with other symptoms to reach an educated guess about what was going on. If I didn't have access to the plugs in my Jeep, I could likely diagnose it without it, but it might take longer or I might be less certain about what I needed to do next.

I'm not saying that any one way is superior to another. I'm saying that since I learned what I know about auto repair long before OBDII, I'm still accustomed to a more hands-on approach that uses my senses and a process of deduction. At the same time, I run Torque full time in both my vehicles and monitor the computer's output of a number of sensors, so I'm not completely stuck in 1970. It just bugs me that I have to rely entirely on a scan tool in so many situations.

I do think there are many "professional" mechanics who suffer from an over-reliance on what the computer tells them. A customer comes in complaining about a noise. The mechanic scans for codes and sees nothing, so he tells the customer nothing is wrong. The customer's car is towed back in after 20 miles with a blown engine or transmission. Haven't we had a few of those happen on this board?