SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[7thgear]

did at any point anyone try to loosen the control arms and have someone pull on them outward as much as possible while tightening everything down?

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

Lowering will not add that much if any at all in the front based on the suspension design. Clearly something else is different.

I don't know what it is, but everything measures the same.

Originally Posted by solort

I believe Chris. But, as he suggests, throw a protest and have it clarified. I think you will find him in compliance....

If you are expecting a regular alignment guy to get you the most legal camber, you will probably be disappointed...

I do all my own alignment stuff

Chris (Laloosh) and I go to the same exact guy, but he had a BRZ with stock BRZ springs and Koni inserts in OEM strut housings. I have the TRD springs and full yellows. I confirmed with Lee Grimes at Koni that their struts were copied off of the OEM strut bodies. They measure out identically. I can't tell you what I would have gotten for camber on OEM struts with TRD springs because it wasn't worth my time to figure that out once the struts measured the same.

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

It is possible that the Koni stock replacements' strut mounting holes may be offset more inboard to the shaft centerline. This could provide more camber than OEM, even while having the same size mounting holes and dimensional size.

Everyone that has measure them vs stock has only measured the mounting hole sizes, not the LOCATION.

Post 3245 in this thread has those measurements by KSConeKiller. They're the same to the tenth of a millimeter. There are variances in the hundredths of a millimeter.

Originally Posted by Laloosh

I will def not be protesting, trust me on that. You guys missed the point of this. BTW Chris and I are in the same region, get our alignment done by the same guy at the same place, on the same machine. I just had my wrx aligned there and I was essentially standing pararel to the ground forcing all my weight into the wheel as people were under the car tightening and loosing bolts....its not a "traditional" alignment lol

I know Chris won't protest, but...

I'm going to bring an OEM strut with me just in case someone does, and I'll bring a micrometer too. I'm not planning on doing very well (Nats will be my 4th event this year and 4th event in the car), but with the internet chatter I'd rather play it safe.

I can't explain why some cars get more than others, I do know that the Konis are dimensionally identical to the OEM strut, and that makes them legal. I do know that someone will have a very hard time making a protest stick in this situation.

I also know that I would not ever run a car that wasn't 100% legal (or as close as I could be given that there may be a pop clip missing somewhere, who knows) because I want to win or lose on my driving, not cheating. That said, I'm confident that my car is legal and will take it to Lincoln as it sits.

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

did at any point anyone try to loosen the control arms and have someone pull on them outward as much as possible while tightening everything down?

We thought about it, but didn't think it was needed at this point with 2.2. If more is needed, I can go back and do that, as well as shift the subframe as there was more available on the passenger side but not the driver's side. I'm going to drive it and see if it needs more than what I've got now, or if I'm getting any issues with lockup on the front tires first.

[solort]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

You know what works even better, straps, and 2x4s on top hats. Trust me all the tricks in the book are known. Sub-frames are loosened and shifted here to perfectly match l/r settings if needed. This isn't a pepboys alignment lol.

Sounds like you are doing everything. I have also seen people get different stock struts and see which ones had the best net build tolerances. And people would get several sets of stock springs and have them checked to see which ones were the lowest and/or stiffest and use those. All within factory tolerances...

Maybe you can try Chris' Konis on your car to see what camber you can get with them. May be more of the dimensions on your car vs strut housing?

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by ChrisV

Post 3245 in this thread has those measurements by KSConeKiller. They're the same to the tenth of a millimeter. There are variances in the hundredths of a millimeter.

What was measured was hole size and location measurement was somewhat incomplete.

Keep in mind here, that the 1mm (2mm total dia difference) of inboard re-location gained from the crash bolts typically results in 0.75 to 1.0* of neg camber.

It doesn't take much...

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by solort

Sounds like you are doing everything. I have also seen people get different stock struts and see which ones had the best net build tolerances. And people would get several sets of stock springs and have them checked to see which ones were the lowest and/or stiffest and use those. All within factory tolerances...

Maybe you can try Chris' Konis on your car to see what camber you can get with them. May be more of the dimensions on your car vs strut housing?

My car got parted out and sold last month. Plus the scca killed the C-street brz to begin with so I truly have nothing to gain from this incase people question my motive. Now that you mention it, all the cars that claim, and the 2 cars that I know for a fact are over 2 degrees are frs' and not brz's. One is Chris on springs/replacements, the other is a frs on just replacements and stock springs, both at -2.2.

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

What was measured was hole size and location measurement was somewhat incomplete.

Keep in mind here, that the 1mm (2mm total dia difference) of inboard re-location gained from the crash bolts typically results in 0.75 to 1.0* of neg camber.

It doesn't take much...

Have you held a Yellow and an OEM in hand and actually have some specific measurement that you think is off, or is this keyboard warrior speculation?

I've held both and measured them. So has KS Cone Killer.

More importantly, so has Koni.

If you have data, give it up. If you are just speculating, knock it off.

[solort]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

My car got parted out and sold last month. Plus the scca killed the C-street brz to begin with so I truly have nothing to gain from this incase people question my motive. Now that you mention it, all the cars that claim, and the 2 cars that I know for a fact are over 2 degrees are frs' and not brz's. One is Chris on springs/replacements, the other is a frs on just replacements and stock springs, both at -2.2.

I know that the crash bolts for the FRS are more expensive (for the same bolt) than the ones sold by Subaru (when I priced them). Maybe more IS better

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by solort

I know that the crash bolts for the FRS are more expensive (for the same bolt) than the ones sold by Subaru (when I priced them). Maybe more IS better

Chris (has a frs) is using the bolts from my car, which were bought at a Subaru dealer. PROTEST!!!!

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by ChrisV

Have you held a Yellow and an OEM in hand and actually have some specific measurement that you think is off, or is this keyboard warrior speculation?

I've held both and measured them. So has KS Cone Killer.

More importantly, so has Koni.

If you have data, give it up. If you are just speculating, knock it off.

So you think camber is just magically blessed on the Koni full replacements vs all other replacement struts???

Its math...trigonometry to be specific. If you are truly getting over -2.0 degrees then something is off vs stock.

Based on the geometry of the suspension and simply looking at what others are getting with "lowered set-ups", it is highly improbable and unlikely that over -2.0 degrees of camber is achievable on a Street class set up.

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

So you think camber is just magically blessed on the Koni full replacements vs all other replacement struts???

Its math...trigonometry to be specific. If you are truly getting over -2.0 degrees then something is off vs stock.

Based on the geometry of the suspension and simply looking at what others are getting with "lowered set-ups", it is highly improbable and unlikely that over -2.0 degrees of camber is achievable on a Street class set up.

So prove it. I looked and couldn't find anything. As in, I held calipers up to my OEM strut and Koni Strut, and they measured the same.

If you have anything above conjecture and speculation, I'm all ears. Otherwise you're adding nothing of value. Thanks.

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by ChrisV

So prove it. I looked and couldn't find anything. As in, I held calipers up to my OEM strut and Koni Strut, and they measured the same.

If you have anything above conjecture and speculation, I'm all ears. Otherwise you're adding nothing of value. Thanks.

Your want to believe is definitely strong

I am arranging to get my hands on a set to tear apart to see where the physical discrepancy is.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by ksconekiller

Okay, here we go. Here's my Koni strut. Note the round (not slotted) holes.


I took the dimensions I thought were relevant to this conversation on both the OEM strut and the Koni. OEM listed first, then Koni. All measurements in millimeters taken with a digital caliper.

Bottom of spring perch to middle of top knuckle hole: 111.61/111.48
Top knuckle hole diameter: 16.28/16.32
Lower knuckle hole diameter: 13.97/14.02
Shock body to inboard edge of top hole: 20.25/20.32
Shock body to outboard edge of lower hole: 40.82/40.88

These should be the dimensions that could affect camber. As you can see, they are all ridiculously close (probably within manufacturing tolerances). I'm not an engineer, but I'd say they would qualify as being the same as far as production is concerned.

I won't be driving the car for a couple of days, so I will leave it apart in case anyone thinks of another measurement that needs to be taken.

Quoted for truth, and so that you guys understand you are arguing about tens of MICRONS.

For reference, a human hair is about 90 microns - that is larger than any of the differences listed here.

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

Your want to believe is definitely strong

I am arranging to get my hands on a set to tear apart to see where the physical discrepancy is.

Great, until you have something that disputes the measurements taken by two separate people on two different sets of equipment, not to mention direct confirmation by the manufacturer that their bodies are OEM replicas, please stop acting and saying that you know anything for certain.