RACESENG X PENSKE | The Ultimate Racing Shocks

[RBbugBITme]

Originally Posted by King Tut

The reuse of the OEM springs, spring perches, and top hats.

If the lower end of the OEM spring can fit on a 2.25, 60mm, or 2.5" ride height adjuster then you probably could make it work. It would probably create awful side load though cause that style end to the spring isn't meant to sit on a totally flat face. Usually guys aren't spending this kind of money to run such a limited class though so its not something we typically do.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by RBbugBITme

If the lower end of the OEM spring can fit on a 2.25, 60mm, or 2.5" ride height adjuster then you probably could make it work. It would probably create awful side load though cause that style end to the spring isn't meant to sit on a totally flat face. Usually guys aren't spending this kind of money to run such a limited class though so its not something we typically do.

You would be surprised what some of the stock class guys are willing to spend to be competitive. Shocks are one of the few things that are left wide open and can thus be a spending war.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by RBbugBITme

If the lower end of the OEM spring can fit on a 2.25, 60mm, or 2.5" ride height adjuster then you probably could make it work. It would probably create awful side load though cause that style end to the spring isn't meant to sit on a totally flat face. Usually guys aren't spending this kind of money to run such a limited class though so its not something we typically do.

well, it's a pretty good market if you can put something together..


right now Bilstein and Koni are gobbling that up, with MCS for those with money (~3k)

[RBbugBITme]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

well, it's a pretty good market if you can put something together..


right now Bilstein and Koni are gobbling that up, with MCS for those with money (~3k)

I'm trying to lock up the whole field in GRC and moving to the WRC for seven figure POs though... priorities. There are tons of shops out there (like the one that started this thread) that could offer parts that fit on our shocks and meet your class rules without me having to lift a finger.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by RBbugBITme

I'm trying to lock up the whole field in GRC and moving to the WRC for seven figure POs though... priorities. There are tons of shops out there (like the one that started this thread) that could offer parts that fit on our shocks and meet your class rules without me having to lift a finger.

then why are you answering on their behalf?


In fact, if penske's so boss, why do you even bother spending time on forum for a platform that retails for less than 30k?

[Canehda]

Originally Posted by RBbugBITme

I'm trying to lock up the whole field in GRC and moving to the WRC for seven figure POs though... priorities. There are tons of shops out there (like the one that started this thread) that could offer parts that fit on our shocks and meet your class rules without me having to lift a finger.

must be nice

[RBbugBITme]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

then why are you answering on their behalf?


In fact, if penske's so boss, why do you even bother spending time on forum for a platform that retails for less than 30k?

You seem personally offended that I'm willing to help when you don't see any designers from any other company willing to answer questions on forums, I like Jarrett and what he does, and like this platform. I'm merely making a suggestion that someone like Raceseng could solve your Street Class problems. My boss would never allow me to spend time on it.

And I don't subscribe to the idea that a car's sticker price should dictate a limit to how much aftermarket components should cost. If I could afford a Ferrari I'd still have my $13,000 C5 with 4-way Penske's, turbos, the lightest wheels, biggest brakes, etc. etc.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by RBbugBITme

You seem personally offended that I'm willing to help .

I've been following your posts because it is, in fact, rare to have someone from something like Penske talk about things, and even shoot some questions your way, but the reality is that most of your answers are rather vague
you are quick to dismiss your competition, allude to superior materials and customer service, and generally just tow your parties line of being a high end manufacturer.

but when pushed for some juicy info you don't really want to provide, offering little of actually deep insight into the magic of suspension tuning.

I suppose I am offended, but that's not really relevant.

[RBbugBITme]

Juicy info? Where did you ask for juicy info? Fire away.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

I've been following your posts because it is, in fact, rare to have someone from something like Penske talk about things, and even shoot some questions your way, but the reality is that most of your answers are rather vague
you are quick to dismiss your competition, allude to superior materials and customer service, and generally just tow your parties line of being a high end manufacturer.

but when pushed for some juicy info you don't really want to provide, offering little of actually deep insight into the magic of suspension tuning.

I suppose I am offended, but that's not really relevant.

You asked if it would meet a certain class.


Nowhere did I see you asking about Motion Ratios, Suspension frequency, digressive valving, etc.

[7thgear]

awhile ago I asked you what made Penske so special, and why companies like Bilstein or Koni do what they do and why the stuff that's really good seems to follow a completely different built philosophy etc


your answer to that was that they were crap and that you couldn't be bothered to even take a look inside to see how they work.


there's a guy out in the states (Fat Cat Motorsports) that rebuilds bilstein units to a completely different philosophy than what's generally available off the shelf.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOtFJ-NcsHQ"]FCM How Shocks Work v2.3 - - Rally setups - YouTube[/ame]


I've been following his videos because he talks about a lot of things most tuners never talk about and explains some difficult concepts with good visuals.

it seems like such a good solution for those of us that want to go to the next level.


you design high end shocks, but are you able to talk to us/show us Penske's tuning philosophy for different applications?

basically I don't want to call Penske and waste their time because I know I cant afford them, but I'm still really interested in how these things work, and what we all should strive for.



are you able to tell us what you consider a good compression curve and a good rebound curve, at low speed and how speed? etc.

the way I see it, if more people understand what makes a good shock good, maybe they're tolerance for low end stuff will go away, raising demand for high end stuff, and maybe reducing entry costs in the long run... who knows!


but this is besides the point, not what this thread is about.

[RBbugBITme]

Here are a few things that I think make Penske special...

1) Our materials, design, and pursuit of reduced friction is probably the best of any shock company in the world. I can say this without hesitation because almost every single major shock brand, really every one that can compete with us at the F1/LMP1/NASCAR/GT3 level, makes all of their profit from supplying OEMs and OEMs don't care about having the best shock. They buy a full car set from Ohlin's/Sachs/Bilstein/Koni/Multimatic for $300-$800 regardless of whether its a Dodge Dart or the new Ford GT. 100% of Penske profits come from racing (and now Trek Mtn. bikes), we don't do anything else outside of some crazy special projects people come to us with.

I have oodles and oodles of anecdotal and scientific evidence to back that up, most of which I'd rather not say on a public forum. The OEM's know it too, GM comes to us for a their R&D setups and they choose us for the Corvette racing team. They've tested the bending stiffness of our strut against theirs and other big names, thats part of why our strut cars can brake harder than others. Our Ford Mustangs are faster than Mustangs with Multimatic stuff but because the two businesses are tied together we'll never be on a factory supported car.

The OEM supply mindset also carries over to their racing programs. OEM shocks can't provide good damping at stiffer levels for a number of reasons so they're usually quite soft on compression and rely on springs and bump rubbers. For whatever reason, the pro shock techs at these companies follow the same philosophy at the race track. This can be very car/track specific but we often use our superior dual-bleed adjuster and dial in way more low speed compression damping and suggest a drop in spring rates. A lot of the time because our damping is so good and with the softer springs there is an immediate impact on low speed grip and power down.

2) Our damping is so good for a number of reasons. With the tolerances we run our shafts are probably manufactured straighter and more concentric than others. Our chrome is laid on way thicker than most. Our surface finish on anything that slides is ridiculous. The bushings and piston bands, little things, all are better designed for performance.

I believe our pistons are seriously unmatched. I wish everyone knew how sensitive they are to everything. Anytime I see someone carry more than one of our pistons in one hand without some sort of soft barrier I'll say something. One well known cheap brand here in the States posted a video of their pistons being made in house. All was good until the piston came off the machine and it was thrown into a bucket full of pistons. No wonder they can't match curves! Ours sit in trays that separate each one. Would you like to control port thermal expansion which can drastically reduce the force of the damper? We've got a bunch of trick materials you'll never find on a Koni/JRZ/Moton/blah/blah and the material I'm trying to get prototyped for Mercedes F1 has never been done before. It'll probably be the most expensive shock piston ever made.

3) Adjusters. We've had our issues in the past but we're pretty well known to be the best, don't think I need to touch on that.

annnnd done.

[Shankenstein]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

awhile ago I asked you what made Penske so special, and why companies like Bilstein or Koni do what they do and why the stuff that's really good seems to follow a completely different built philosophy etc...

your answer to that was that they were crap and that you couldn't be bothered to even take a look inside to see how they work.

You wondered why we don't see more high-end vendors actively participating on our forum? It's this type of banter (no matter how valid) that drags down brand image.

The company I work for also leverages the brand's perceived quality (which is rightfully earned), and I respect the risk Ryan takes by jumping into our community. If you guys haven't notice, we have some quality content and people... so it's more than just a market for products. We have the type of discussions that will be internet staples for 10+ years. Not just another tuner forum.

Penske is legitimately a leader in piston design, and the complexity of their reservoir and adjuster designs demand high-end machine shop tolerances. They also provide track support for alot of races. The cost of innovation (R&D), materials, machining, and customer support are quite high. Some research institutions have 75% overhead costs before professors can use the money. Some startups can sell innovative products at 10:1 margins. It's all about creating value for the users. Perceived quality does inflate margins, but there is a huge cost in staying ahead of the market.

As forum members, we need to atleast understand the company's value position and question things in a way that doesn't alienate their support.

It's always 1 KoolBRZ comment away from happening.

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by Shankenstein

It's always 1 KoolBRZ comment away from happening.

Lol too true