Sprintex 335 Testing & Progress

[FirestormFRS]

Originally Posted by moto-mike

This is with the 210 but awfully similar. The SC whine is substantial with our short intake. Even with a perrin CAI it is much more subdued. Barely audible with a stock plastic intake.

I've watched that video way too many times. Love the little engine that could sound.

[Dream20b]

Looks like I need a short intake for my 210, for Teh Noizez

[johan]

Originally Posted by moto-mike

E70, 80mm pulley still. We're up about 10 hp from the winter numbers with the header change. Likely a bigger effect since it was cold then and warm now, and both are uncorrected.

Now, we did some additional testing today going down as far as a 72.5mm pulley. This places the blower at a speed that should allow for the rated 500 engine HP or about 430 whp. However, looking at the data, we see airflows that are only up about 10-15% in the mid-range. Power is up there clearly--we're spinning in 4th on RE71Rs--but up top we have nearly identical air flow values over 6500 RPM. So either belt slip, or more likely we have an intake or exhaust restriction.

To figure this out I retrospectively went back and compared airflow values of JRSCs, KWSC, and turbo cars. What I'm seeing is that we're hitting a similar value at the very top end, but with this kit we're seeing higher boost levels to achieve the same airflow. What I think is happening is that we're either choking the blower on the intake side (throttle body) or choking it on the exhaust side (header/exhaust). The exhaust makes more sense since we're seeing a high boost, but low airflow scenario. We see a very similar thing with plugged up cats.

Recently we did a massive 2" primary header for a 2.5l NA MX5, and picked up significant HP as a result. I bet we can achieve the same thing here.

The good news? I really think there are not going to be many issues running this kit on pump gas with the 85 or even 80mm pulley, and 80 on e85 for sure.

With whatever restriction we're seeing, the actual load on the motor is not really all that huge. So yes, you do see high boost levels going into the motor, but that is a measure of restriction rather than workload. The actual airflow consumed is what really represents the load on the rods/ring lands etc...and all of those are not far off from turbo setups we've done that have lasted quite a long time.

How big of a throttle body are you running currently? If it's stock, and your intake leading to it isn't larger than 3", that's definitely a large part of the problem. IME, PD supercharger flow is mostly limited by the intake ahead of the blower if it's a pull through setup. The exhaust side of the engine will only affect things very subtly. If you want to make 400+ on a PD SC (assuming you're spinning it fast enough), you have to have an 80mm+ TB and a 3.5" or 4" intake tube leading to it (4" is better). Honestly, 80mm might not be enough - on one car we used a TB off a Toyota Tundra (90mm) and that got us into the 450whp range.

I've done this many many times on K-series motors and we use a standard adapter plate (made by p2r and other companies) to adapt larger Honda TB's in the 78-80mm range. This was the secret for us to unlocking the higher end of the flow range for blowers.

[johan]

Originally Posted by sam69

Pics of the stock 65mm TB against the Raptor 80mm TB that I just recieved.

I have to wonder if these work with these throttlebodies. I think they follow the same patterns: http://www.powerrevracing.com/04-08-...ter-p/p384.htm

[SprintexUSA]

Originally Posted by johan

How big of a throttle body are you running currently? If it's stock, and your intake leading to it isn't larger than 3", that's definitely a large part of the problem. IME, PD supercharger flow is mostly limited by the intake ahead of the blower if it's a pull through setup. The exhaust side of the engine will only affect things very subtly. If you want to make 400+ on a PD SC (assuming you're spinning it fast enough), you have to have an 80mm+ TB and a 3.5" or 4" intake tube leading to it (4" is better). Honestly, 80mm might not be enough - on one car we used a TB off a Toyota Tundra (90mm) and that got us into the 450whp range.

I've done this many many times on K-series motors and we use a standard adapter plate (made by p2r and other companies) to adapt larger Honda TB's in the 78-80mm range. This was the secret for us to unlocking the higher end of the flow range for blowers.

I was going to ask about a Tundra or Lexus throttlebody. Something in the family might work a little easier, no?

Regardless--it looks like there's 4-5 of you chasing 400whp or better on stock blocks. This should be good

[johan]

Originally Posted by SprintexUSA

I was going to ask about a Tundra or Lexus throttlebody. Something in the family might work a little easier, no?

Regardless--it looks like there's 4-5 of you chasing 400whp or better on stock blocks. This should be good

Yes - it might work easier. The electronics are all the same though - as after some minor fitment modifications, the Tundra TB worked fine with OEM Honda ECU logic (tuned of course). It's really down to fitment and cost. The 90mm Tundra TB (at the time) was $1000.... not exactly awesome. A 78MM Acura MDX TB is $195. So there's some investigation / experimentation to be done there.

[Xero-Limit]

Originally Posted by johan

How big of a throttle body are you running currently? If it's stock, and your intake leading to it isn't larger than 3", that's definitely a large part of the problem. IME, PD supercharger flow is mostly limited by the intake ahead of the blower if it's a pull through setup. The exhaust side of the engine will only affect things very subtly. If you want to make 400+ on a PD SC (assuming you're spinning it fast enough), you have to have an 80mm+ TB and a 3.5" or 4" intake tube leading to it (4" is better). Honestly, 80mm might not be enough - on one car we used a TB off a Toyota Tundra (90mm) and that got us into the 450whp range.

I've done this many many times on K-series motors and we use a standard adapter plate (made by p2r and other companies) to adapt larger Honda TB's in the 78-80mm range. This was the secret for us to unlocking the higher end of the flow range for blowers.

@johan, most of this is right on the money though I think a proper 3" header collector and 3" exhaust will have some pretty good gains.

The TB is a tough question. We tried doing something similar on the MX5 where we make a large intake plenum, but the problem currently is that this style of TB (identical as the BRZ almost) has integrated hall effect TPS sensors it looks like. Then there's the polarity. If any of those are out of whack the ECU will go into a failsafe mode. We have something in the works but it is just damn near impossible to do any more R&D work right now as we're in the busy season. We're also investigating whether this HP vs Torque ratio has some belt slip in play. Wouldn't be out of the question.

[johan]

Originally Posted by moto-mike

@johan, most of this is right on the money though I think a proper 3" header collector and 3" exhaust will have some pretty good gains.

The TB is a tough question. We tried doing something similar on the MX5 where we make a large intake plenum, but the problem currently is that this style of TB (identical as the BRZ almost) has integrated hall effect TPS sensors it looks like. Then there's the polarity. If any of those are out of whack the ECU will go into a failsafe mode. We have something in the works but it is just damn near impossible to do any more R&D work right now as we're in the busy season. We're also investigating whether this HP vs Torque ratio has some belt slip in play. Wouldn't be out of the question.

Yes, exhaust will make gains - but they'll be similar to the gains you'd get NA. As long as you can correctly manage the heat of the air going into the motor - it won't have nearly the effect it would say for, a turbo. It will just make the car really damned loud

I've flowed 400+ hp through stock header / exhaust on a 2011 Civic Si (K20) with a Rotrex blower on E85. I went to a high end header / 3" exhaust on the same setup and the gains were basically identical to what they would make on a NA K20, if not slightly less. Similarly, I've spoken at length about the effects of exhaust work on PD blowers with the owner of Hondata, who has an extensive amount of experience there. He said that on a car making roughly 300hp on stock exhaust, they only saw an 8whp gain when swapping to a full 3".

I'm not saying this to dissuade you - there will be a difference. I'm just trying to add to the discussion in a way that targets the best $/hp here based on my experience.

Now I'm really curious about TB compatibility, as the Honda K/J series TB's appear to have the exact same wiring harness plug on them as the OEM 86 TB. I wouldn't be surprised if the same company (Keihin) makes most of the TB's used by Honda/Subaru/Toyota - and they're all compatible given physical fitment considerations.

[SprintexUSA]

Hitachi? Nippon Denso?

[johan]

Originally Posted by SprintexUSA

Hitachi? Nippon Denso?

Denso is definitely a possibility. Looks like they are largely similar to the Keihin ones (same motor / actuator housing / plug). They could just be compatible or even possibly a re-brand / sub-contract build in some cases.

Hitachi looks to be what Nissan uses.

I need to dig through my old Honda parts and see if I still have a K20 TB sitting around, this can't be hard to figure out.

[bfrank1972]

Great info here, thanks guys - if I make the jump to FI this year the 335 is top of my list. Earlier in this thread there's some initial dynos - they show a huge low/midrange with some significant falloff at the top. Originally some attributed this as a characteristic of the blower, but I'm starting to wonder if the TB is a restriction with the 80mm pulley in the upper rev band (thus the falloff)? With a larger TB we might see a flatter torque curve across the rev band even with just the 80mm pulley...

[johan]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

Great info here, thanks guys - if I make the jump to FI this year the 335 is top of my list. Earlier in this thread there's some initial dynos - they show a huge low/midrange with some significant falloff at the top. Originally some attributed this as a characteristic of the blower, but I'm starting to wonder if the TB is a restriction with the 80mm pulley in the upper rev band (thus the falloff)? With a larger TB we might see a flatter torque curve across the rev band even with just the 80mm pulley...

It's possible. Opening up the intake pre-supercharger allows the charger to run at maximum efficiency. It has to do less work to draw air in. This directly correlates to an increase in generated boost.

[BRZ'13]

Whats possible on 93/94 octane? I am soon purchasing a SC and stuck between kraftwerks c38 or this 335 kit. My goals are around 300whp/250tq on pump while running a stock motor.

Not sure if a dyno was done running pump gas but i would be interested in seeing the results. No access to E85 here

[Dream20b]

Originally Posted by BRZ'13

Whats possible on 93/94 octane? I am soon purchasing a SC and stuck between kraftwerks c38 or this 335 kit. My goals are around 300whp/250tq on pump while running a stock motor.

Not sure if a dyno was done running pump gas but i would be interested in seeing the results. No access to E85 here

Originally Posted by moto-mike

Pump Gas Update!

Got the ethanol burned through and put nearly 800 miles on the car since the blower went in. Some highway, but some were going up and down our local "race track" showing customers what this setup can do.

Immediately once we got down to e30 we saw increasing knock counts, tip in knock, and the normal ethanol corrections weren't quite correct due to being at such high boost. We got the timing down, and reverted to our reduced cam timings. That brought the knock counts down to reasonable levels you might see with a 210, only with about 50 more HP. Eventually dropped it down to full pump gas, and everything is just fine.

Some observations here:

On pump gas you definitely make more power with the 335 over the 210, by far. But if you run exclusively pump gas, a lower boost system would be best. The reasoning is that when you turn the bigger blower to make 18-19 psi, you're using up lots of HP to do that. So the 335 at 300hp will really be taxing the motor an extra 20 or so HP over the 210 to make the same. Even though we reduce ignition timing to reduce the load on the motor and cut back power, you're still compressing a much larger amount of air. That means you're using more fuel and engine power to achieve the same power levels. Only caveat is that we're still making way more power on pump gas than the 210 did on e85 and small pulley.

I think our preliminary conclusion here is that this setup is NOT for:

• Those running pump gas exclusively especially 91 or euro 95.

This kit is likely good for those running:

• Mixture of ethanol or water/meth, with an understanding that the throttle percentage of time at 100% throttle will be inversely proportional to the lifespan of the motor.

This kit is perfect for those running:

• Mostly e85 or WMI. Lots of anectodal cases of people running 15+ psi on the stock motor and holding up fine on ethanol.
• Built motor. If you get some forged pistons/rods in there and head studs, this will be an absolute monster with a 70mm pulley, large header/full exhaust, and e85. This I'd like to see!

From what I gather, running the 210 is safer off of E85, unless you want to run water/meth injection, which can be a small headache, especially if you run out. new/Built motor may be in your future as well if you run the 335 on pump gas