If all else was equal, would you buy an electric?

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

Exactly. Now, when charging capacity gets so huge that one can go a week between chargings (like most folks do with gas), then a once a day charging session will only take a few minutes like filling up a gas tank does. But if you do some hard driving on a track and such, say, then you'll still only get a few runs in before you either have to swap out the battery packs (and in a tesla these are about 1500 lbs and are what give it such a low CoG, so it'd be like pulling an engine in complexity and difficulty), or wait hours while the car charges but everyone else gets runs in.

That's the major kill factor in EVs, I think: recharging cannot be done quickly. It simply cannot without massively dangerous amps (divide Amp-hour capacity of battery by the charging source's output amperage rating to get the from-drained charge time) that no sane person would want to be casually handling at a charging station. That, OR easily swapped out battery packs like we currently do with battery-powered hobby helicopters and airplanes. Problem there is size & weight.

And that's where combustion-powered engines have the advantage. Refueling times are short and it's very easy to do. You don't have to swap out the gas tank to quickly refuel, or wait for fuel to condense from a heavy vapor at source to liquid in the tank and fill up that way (best analogy I could think of to charging a battery), etc.

Amps at charge source is the functional equivalent of fuel flow rate from the pump. With a high amp source, you have the VERY dangerous possibility of arcing and electrocution. You have a much lower risk by orders of magnitude of having a spark ignite fuel vapors and catch the car on fire with petroleum fuel unless you're very careless. Whereas with a high amp electric source, it's very easy unless you're well trained and extremely careful in your precautions, prep, and procedure to kill yourself or cause a very dangerous arc.

Only way to mitigate that danger is to have a lower amp output, such as what Tesla supercharger stations currently have, and settle for waiting an hour or two while your hybrids and economy cars get the same range till needing to fuel up and are back on the road in 5-10 minutes (and only that long b/c of folks taking bathroom breaks) while you're sitting there for hours.

You're only assuming current battery technology. There have been some discoveries announced recently (graphene, super capacitors, aluminium batteries) that charge in the fraction of the time even a modern lithium battery charges, reducing the time necessary (I'm assuming here, based on hypotheses) from an hour to minutes.

Also, chance of spark is severely reduced with reduction in voltage, which conveniently corresponds to an increase in amperage and faster charge time. Naturally, more current means more heat, so you would have to compensate for that, but dissipating heat from a quicker charge is much easier that insulating against high voltage, so it likely could be used in the same property area as petroleum pumps.

[SirBrass]

Well, if those battery improvements prove viable, then once it becomes economically feasible to use them in EVs, then I could very well change my stance.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Which is why I think a battery exchange infrastructure is a likely stepping stone for direct grid-to-vehicle energy transfer.

Didn't get a bite on this post so I'll ask directly. What do you guys think about battery exchange stations? Drive in to a station like an automated car wash where the exhausted battery is removed and replaced with a fresh one.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Didn't get a bite on this post so I'll ask directly. What do you guys think about battery exchange stations? Drive in to a station like an automated car wash where the exhausted battery is removed and replaced with a fresh one.

Only issue I would take with this is that you don't know who had your battery previously, or how its been worn, how many times recharged, etc. There would have to be some pretty serious safeguards and checks in place on these "exchangers" before I would trust driving in this type of system.

Also, as I posted before, they would be obsolete before they were finished being rolled out, due to developments in batteries.

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Didn't get a bite on this post so I'll ask directly. What do you guys think about battery exchange stations? Drive in to a station like an automated car wash where the exhausted battery is removed and replaced with a fresh one.

Its comparable to a tank of gas. those who dont have the time to wait for a S/C just pay $60 for a new "tank of gas".

[cdrazic93]

I think the pole should be revised for a maybe option too.

I would buy one for a commuter. Not for a toy.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

Well, if those battery improvements prove viable, then once it becomes economically feasible to use them in EVs, then I could very well change my stance.

Same here, once the experience is the same, I don't care if my car runs off unicorn tears..

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I don't car if my car runs off unicorn tears..

Bad pun.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

Bad pun.

I rather liked it.

[babydriver]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I seriously doubt you would just get charged for the electricity. I figure a fill-up would be similar to filling up the tank on a gas vehicle, they would charge you some equivalent of buying fuel (maybe a per minute charging rate equal to the price of the equivalent liquid fuel flow for that percentage of a tank?).

If there is a profit to be had, someone will figure it out. The problem is there isn't one yet because the volume is too low and the charging takes too long.

With regard to charging time, I agree completely; it is too slow at present for commercial operation. However, with regard to cost, there is another factor that will limit what can be charged on the open market -- what it costs to charge the car at home. The reason that electric vehicles get these mileage equivalents of 110 mpg compared to gasoline vehicles is entirely due to the lower cost of charging the battery vis-a-vis filling up the tank. If I can charge my car at home for less than $2 a session, why would I pay 10 or 20 times more at a commercial gas station? Most of the customers for that station are going to come from nearby, i.e., daily commuters, so the gas station will ultimately be dependent on that client base for most of its retail traffic. Having said that, I might consider owning an EV even now if it were purchased as a second or even third vehicle. I can see having the EV for commuting to work, a second (gas powered) vehicle for longer distance travel (perhaps a hybrid) and then of course the FR-S for blasting around the hills west of Austin. This is not an imaginary scenario, as we already have the hybrid and the FR-S. The third car at present is my daughter's get-to-school car (a Nissan Sentra) but it could easily be an EV for local use. Then we have the hybrid for any long trips and we save bucks at the gas pump.

My big dream is to install enough solar panels to charge the electric vehicle on a daily basis and then tell Big Oil to go F**k themselves.

[babydriver]

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

Also, chance of spark is severely reduced with reduction in voltage, which conveniently corresponds to an increase in amperage and faster charge time. Naturally, more current means more heat, so you would have to compensate for that, but dissipating heat from a quicker charge is much easier that insulating against high voltage, so it likely could be used in the same property area as petroleum pumps.

I think this is a real possibility. Ohm's Law, E=IR, so it doesn't matter from an energy standpoint if you use high voltage/low current or the other way around. The same amount of power can be imparted to the battery either way. The reduction in voltage does reduce the risk of arcing, as air is a good insulator. Some sort of electronic monitoring system could easily be devised that would assure a good, low ohm connection is in place (like a computer "handshake" with another computer via internet) before charging could begin. Consider how truly dangerous gasoline is, yet we have tamed that beast almost completely. I don't think that safety will be the limiting factor with EV charging.

There are some pretty cool ideas in battery technologies coming up in the next few years. I especially like the concept of the "paper battery", using graphene embedded on the surface of ordinary newsprint-type paper to make a very light, high powered capacitor.

I am more optimistic about EV than I am about hydrogen cars, even though I know that it's an irrational fear that all of these cars will be turning into mini-Hindenburgs. Everyone is entitiled to their own neuroses!

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by babydriver

My big dream is to install enough solar panels to charge the electric vehicle on a daily basis and then tell Big Oil to go F**k themselves.

I agree with your scenario as a third or local car. Wouldn't work as a commuter car for me due to distance but would have worked for any of my kids as a first car.

As far as "Big Oil" well, you can say goodbye to them (sort of, that electricity you are buying still has "Big Oil" involved in its production as does your car) but you can't forever say goodbye to the 13% of the cost of a gallon of gas that goes to the Feds and the states in terms of road taxes. There will be a point where the "free ride" electrics and to a lesser extent hybrids are getting now will end.

Just this year in Georgia the legislature considered repealing the very generous alternative fuel tax credit with a $200 a year licensing fee to help offset the loss of road taxes being lost due to more efficient cars and alternative cars. I don't think it passed, but eventually it will. How generous? Well if you combine the two together you can basically drive a Nissan Leaf on a two year lease for free as it is enough to pay for the lease.

Admittedly $200 doesn't sound like much but it is pretty close to what many are paying in road taxes to drive the 86 every year. As an example, in 2014 I drove 21,649 miles and paid a total of $2,334 for the 660 gallons of fuel it required. On that, using the 13% road tax average, I paid $303.42 in road use taxes for the privilege. I would imagine very few electric vehicles see 21,000 miles in a year, so in this case they would likely pay a higher tax per mile than I do.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by babydriver

I am more optimistic about EV than I am about hydrogen cars, even though I know that it's an irrational fear that all of these cars will be turning into mini-Hindenburgs. Everyone is entitiled to their own neuroses!

Just a point of order here, the Hindenberg fire was due more to the thermite-like coating (not known that it was flammable) that was on the exterior of the zepplin. Sure, the Hydrogen was flammable, but the containment difference between fuel cell cars and the 1930s era Zepplin is completely different.

[SirBrass]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Same here, once the experience is the same, I don't care if my car runs off unicorn tears..

I will miss rowing my own, though...