PLM Long Tube Header

[Cross]

Mine is that even the maker of said original stated the difference in price is R&D so for that they charge 1200 vs 550 and that's ok to everyone.
How is that not stealing from the very community they support it's over double the price.

This idea that you make back all the time spent making something is ludicrous it's called an investment in an idea not a loan for the community to pay back.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by Cross

Mine is that even the maker of said original stated the difference in price is R&D so for that they charge 1200 vs 550 and that's ok to everyone.
How is that not stealing from the very community they support it's over double the price.

This idea that you make back all the time spent making something is ludicrous it's called an investment in an idea not a loan for the community to pay back.

yep a risk you take in development that you hope you make back in the end. I agree price gouging is just as unethical.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by bur****jp

You must not understand what a commodities market is. Pencils are a good example of a commodity market. The greater majority of pencils in the world are hexegonal with a 6mm inscribed circle. They're yellow, and they have an eraser attached at one end. they're labeled #2. If I make pencils of that description, am I stealing from anybody? no. It's a commodity. Pencils are expected to be like that.
Cereals are similar, albeit not exactly so. Some cereals are shaped like little donuts, including Apple Jacks and Cheerios, which are from different manufacturers. If I make cereal shaped like little donuts I'm not stealing anyone's current idea. I'm sure 60 years ago I would have been accused of copying Cheerios (I can't find any mention of O shaped cereal before this, but I didn't exactly look hard) but time has passed an people expect their breakfast cereal to be delivered to their face in miniature form.

Claiming to be what you copied is called counterfeit. Yes if it's branded as such... There's some overlap here, but just because it is not expressly counterfeit does not mean it's not stealing. You are still handing money to people to provide you a product which is immorally produced. What is ethical and moral is all subjective again its not illegal

How about this. Lets say I'm a member of the forum. A US citizen. I say "I want a Nameless, but I can't afford it, so I'm going to borrow my friend's Nameless, make a jig, and copy it. I'm going to order enough material to make a few. I think it'll be about $600. Who wants one?"
Is what I'm doing moral? I'd probably get banned from the forum. I HOPE I'd get banned for it. people get banned from the forum everyday for things that are far from illegal? What's your point? What about the people handing me money. Would anyone even hand me money? I hope not. No, I would not hand money to some random guy in his garage attempting to reproduce a header design he copied. Not because it was copied but because your some random ass dude in a garage, If you say what I would be doing would be wrong, then you are being hypocritical to turn around and hand money to any of these knock-offs. Spending money with a company is akin to telling them "I support your business practices. I vote for you with my money." YOU are doing something immoral by knowingly supporting them doing something immoral

The difference here is that it is expected that an east asian manufactured copy will eventually arise of any quality product on the market. Maybe it's a sign of success? Like a mockbuster. It does not make it moral, though.

The irony here is that they copied the Nameless, who's whole story is about fighting and mocking the very thing we're talking about.

Again my issue isn't with ethics I agree in some way it is unethical, but again it's not illegal...

[Andrew025]

Originally Posted by Cross

Mine is that even the maker of said original stated the difference in price is R&D so for that they charge 1200 vs 550 and that's ok to everyone.
How is that not stealing from the very community they support it's over double the price.

This idea that you make back all the time spent making something is ludicrous it's called an investment in an idea not a loan for the community to pay back.

People don't have to buy it if they don't like the price.
They were first with this design and it's also one of the top performing headers for our car currently. That generally carries a premium, whether you or anyone else likes it.
I honestly think the price of the top end headers are ridiculous but it didn't stop me from buying the Ptuning because it was one of the best available.

[burdickjp]

Originally Posted by raven1231

Again my issue isn't with ethics I agree in some way it is unethical, but again it's not illegal...

Did I ever say it was illegal? There are legal things which are immoral and there are illegal things which are moral. If you base what you do entirely by its legality then you're not exactly a moral person.
Also, if you're only qualms with someone making a copy of a product to sell is that guy's ability to copy it correctly then you're not a moral person.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Andrew025

People don't have to buy it if they don't like the price.
They were first with this design and it's also one of the top performing headers for our car currently. That generally carries a premium, whether you or anyone else likes it.
I honestly think the price of the top end headers are ridiculous but it didn't stop me from buying the Ptuning because it was one of the best available.

Yet others argue it's not however the majority of the argument here had been ethics and it goes both ways here.

If this EL was the best and my final plan would use it (and I did decide to not buy an NSX) then I have no problem paying 800 for an original but 1200 because they doubled the price and admitted it that's one thing I don't agree with and it's not the top performing heading either.

[Andrew025]

Originally Posted by Cross

Yet others argue it's not however the majority of the argument here had been ethics and it goes both ways here.

If this EL was the best and my final plan would use it (and I did decide to not buy an NSX) then I have no problem paying 800 for an original but 1200 because they doubled the price and admitted it that's one thing I don't agree with and it's not the top performing heading either.

I said "one of" not "the one".

[tennisfreak]

Originally Posted by wparsons

I'm not going to overlay the two dynos because it's a waste of time. The OFT is done on e85, the nameless is on pump gas. The OFT dyno also doesn't include stock runs, so you have no idea what that car put down on that dyno before the header, tune and e85. Also note the nameless was run on the full stock exhaust, I can't remember for sure but I'm pretty sure the OFH runs were on a full aftermarket exhaust.

Take a look at the two "curves" though. The nameless makes more torque for longer, which is what actually makes the car faster. If you think those have a similar shape, you need to look closer. Get a dyno of the nameless on e85 and it'll be blowing the OFH out of the water across the board.

You can't compare final dynos only, you need to compare before/after to see what kind of changes you're getting.

LOL you are stubborn and skating around my point.
Yes they are different dynos and yes there are differences in the torque curves.
The differences are the 10% I am talking about in header design. The 90% I originally referred to was the removal of flow restriction (AKA: catalytic converter).

And LMAO if you think the Nameless header this going to make a car significantly faster than a car with OFH.

Here is the bone stock dyno OFT+OFH(nothing else) with baseline on 91pump gas. This was taken with the canned OFT and not some custom dyno tune that took weeks to perfect like the Nameless dyno run. Yes I was around back then and was tracking that header very closely. The dyno they posted was a highly customized tune that took them weeks to perfect.
Cant remember if Nameless dyno was 93 or 91 gas and they dont publicly state it on their website.


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=272

[xwd]

People who buy knockoff/counterfeit products will always find ways to justify those purchases. Been happening as long as people have been buying them and will continue for infinity.

[Dimman]

http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...f#.VTEn15Hn_qA

Here is an article on the rare occasion of a knockoff maker being successfully sued by the original. This was not a counterfeit. There was no logo infringement.

So precedent is there, but small makers shouldn't have to add $500000 to their R&D costs to cover legal defense for fuck sakes...

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

And LMAO if you think the Nameless header this going to make a car significantly faster than a car with OFH.

You're kidding yourself if you don't think the fatter powerband will make a difference. Even on e85, there's still a dip of about 15lb/ft on the OFH based on their own dynos. The nameless is dead flat for over 3000rpm.

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

Here is the bone stock dyno OFT+OFH(nothing else) with baseline on 91pump gas. This was taken with the canned OFT and not some custom dyno tune that took weeks to perfect like the Nameless dyno run.

You're also kidding yourself if you don't think the OFT UEL tune didn't take A LOT of time to be a dead match for the OFH. Not saying Shiv shouldn't do that, but be realistic with things.

At the end of the day, ask guys actually racing (especially autox) which header they would take and why.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by raven1231

Because buying replica products is not stealing... At least not in the US. Now if I went to Nameless and jacked a header out of their shop, then yes that would be stealing. Your argument is just as ridiculous....it would be going to the grocery store and buying a box of generic fruit loops instead of the name brand. They taste the same, look the same, but have different branding and one might be of slightly less quality and is about half the price. Are these people thieves too ?

You might not be stealing, but you're buying a stolen product.

IP theft is very real, and doesn't require a physical object be stolen to make it theft.

[DarkSunrise]

I feel like the Nameless 4-2-1 header has become somewhat misunderstood on this forum. It may not put out more peak power than other headers, but it does have the fattest midrange.

Here is a comparison I put together a while back of the Nameless vs. JDL vs. OFH headers:



Take this with a huge grain of salt since they were tested on different dynos, but even still, Nameless' midrange advantage from 3600-6000 RPM is clear even though peak power is about the same between the three. If you want the header with the thickest midrange, Nameless is probably your best choice.

Lastly about the original vs. clone/copy debate, I think the community should try to support the maker of the original if they want to see continued development on these cars. Not only do you support further development, but you usually get the benefit of better construction and service.

That said, I wouldn't look down on someone for buying a clone/copy part. If someone can't afford the original, it makes sense that they would buy the cheaper copy and I don't consider that stealing. After all, Nameless could have put some kind of patent or IP protection on their part if they wanted. But overall I do think as part of this community if you can afford to support manufacturers who invest into real R&D efforts as Nameless has clearly done, you should.

(This is coming from the owner of a JDL header, in case it matters.)

[Jesse@JDLAutodesign]

It comes down to ethics...bottom line. Everyone has different values and expectations, and i've become perfectly ok with that. I'm perfectly ok with overseas parts. What i'm not ok with is saying they exist because you can't afford the real thing. You don't need to put a header on your car, you don't need to put new wheels or a lip kit on it. Being able to do so is already a luxury in itself. Anyone could easily save another month, or however long to buy the original if they valued ethics. So next time don't say you can't afford something you don't "need" anyways..just say you don't value ethics, innovation and integrity. I've come to expect that with most people these days anyways...well at least until the same principles effect them personally in a negative way.

If you guys knew just how cheap you can actually buy crap like PLM from the factories overseas, you would really see who's really gauging the market. We're talking WELL under $100 a header. I wish we could turn profits like that. Some of you have no idea what it really costs to build these when you're using material made in the USA, paying honest wages ($20+hr for skilled tig weldors), paying taxes, advertising, shop overhead, etc. There's not much left at the end of the day, hell i'm lucky if i can take a paycheck as an owner at the end of the day (and if i do it's well below minimum wage if you factor the hours in). Most small specialized shops do this for the passion, not the money. You take away that passion and companies like PLM don't have anything to rip off.

Anyways end of my rant, I feel for Nameless, PLM has done this to me before, it SUCKS. Back to customer orders so i can hopefully finish up my personal FR-S build this weekend that's taken me over 2 years to afford with all original parts!