The Sports of Toyota 86

[Tromatic]

Originally Posted by bcj

"Sound Creator"



Gag!

The LFA had three "sound creators".

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Rookie84

Cd (coefficient of drag) is drag coefficient. You are writing like Cd and drag coefficient are two different things.

Yes, it is the drag coefficient. Spelling error.

Originally Posted by Rookie84

If designing a car with low Cd but with high down force were possible, don't you think F1 cars or any other racing cars would have lower Cd values?

Yes it is possible. Check Nissan GT-R for example. It has a Cd value of 0.26. It is silly to say that BRZ doesn't have good downforce, because it has a low Cd value. Don't forget that we are talking about street legal cars here. F1 cars is another story.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Tromatic

The LFA had three "sound creators".

I prefer to say that LFA has a stero sound creator and the twins have a mono sound creator

[Rookie84]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Yes, it is the drag coefficient. Spelling error.


Yes it is possible. Check Nissan GT-R for example. It has a Cd value of 0.26. It is silly to say that BRZ doesn't have good downforce, because it has a low Cd value. Don't forget that we are talking about street legal cars here. F1 cars is another story.

GT-R still does not produce downforce as high as 458. GTR produces 178 lbs @ 186 mph, which is 80 kg @ 299 kph. 458 creates 140 kg @ 200 kph. Not even close, you see? Also, 991 turbo creates between 291 to 331 lbs @ 186 mph depending on optional aero kit.

This is the exact reason why I wrote that Cd and down force are related together but have no fixed relationship. To say that they are completely irrelevant would be wrong.

Great example is 991 with its aero kit. It does not increase Cd yet it increases downforce by 40 lbs @ 186 mph. However, if they wanted significantly larger amount of downforce, they would have inevitably had no choice but to also raise Cd along with it.

Yes, good aero design can minimize Cd by reducing frontal area as much as possible while achieving good downforce but only up to a certain point.

Lastly, the aerodynamics of the twins are not their strongest point. While the low Cd number is impressive, I bet they create nowhere near the downforce levels of above mentioned cars. I cannot find the exact figures(??? lbs @ ??? mph) for the twins so if someone can tell me, I'd appreciate it. Anyway, the twins are not designed to go so fast to a point where aerodynamics really make a huge difference. I completely agree that this car is not about the numbers and you don't get it until you drive it. I drove it, got it, and own one now. But to say that numbers don't matter and then to compare numbers with very high-end sports cars is just silly.

[nikitopo]

Here are some non-ordinary ways to produce downforce.

In front, apart from the splitter, this part of the hood is deformable under high speed.



It is a very smart decision. Some think incorrectly that the deformation is just a design issue.

Rear hood has a space on the level of the window:



Again for same reasons.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Rookie84

But to say that numbers don't matter and then to compare numbers with very high-end sports cars is just silly.

In my point of view, numbers don't matter because you have to see the whole picture. That's what i think the designers wanted to say. You have to see the downforce, the weight, the weight distribution, the center of gravity and a lot of other things. There are lot of parameters and it is difficult to explain all these in an audience. It is not that the car is under developed or have some weak points or something else. The car is well studied and if you drive it correctly on a windy road then it is very very fast. Based on personal experience, it is very dificult to beat it in such conditions. Only personal dislike is with the stock tires, but this is again a preference and very easy to change.

[Rookie84]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

In my point of view, numbers don't matter because you have to see the whole picture. That's what i think the designers wanted to say. You have to see the downforce, the weight, the weight distribution, the center of gravity and a lot of other things. There are lot of parameters and it is difficult to explain all these in an audience. It is not that the car is under developed or have some weak points or something else. The car is well studied and if you drive it correctly on a windy road then it is very very fast. Based on personal experience, it is very dificult to beat it in such conditions. Only personal dislike is with the stock tires, but this is again a preference and very easy to change.

If you start looking at the numbers, this car does not appeal to people like me. No matter how light it is, how fun it is to drive, how good the weight distribution is, etc., the fact is that this is not a fast car by any means on paper(and in real life as well). I come from owning many cars that easily put down 400whp or much more. I've owned Supra Turbo w/ single turbo, STi w/ GT30R, Evo 8 w/ 2.3L, GT35R, and meth injection, FD RX-7 w/ LS6 swap, IS300 w/ GTE swap... Hell, I can't even remember all just from top of my head. I was actually waiting for a TRD/STi version. Until I actually drove the car, I simply thought I would never be happy with such an underpowered(well, at least in my standards) car. Hell, it is more than 1 second slower to 60 than my daily driver(Chevy Caprice V8). It took me 3 years since its release to at least give it a try to see what all the fuss was about. I just wasn't interested in 200HP car with the same very reason why I was not interested in any Miatas.

After I drove the car, and it all made sense. The driving position, steering feel, balance of the chassis, great visibility, great feedback which lets me know what each tire was exactly doing... The closest thing in driving feel of this car was from FC and FD RX-7 I've owned. The biggest difference? Having "only" 200HP lets me actually use all the power on the street without killing myself, which actually makes it more fun to drive.

The reason why this car can keep up with cars with much more power in winding roads is simple. The balance is great, and the power is just the right amount. It really is scary to push through mountains in any cars that have more than 400HP. You spend most of your time fighting the power in corner exits. With the twins, you just put your foot down and enjoy the experience. Since high powered cars cannot use even 70% of the power unless the driver has no concerns for safety, the twins, being able to use most of the little power they've got along with the great balance of the chassis, can keep up with the big boys.

This car is not about the numbers and I somehow have an allergic reaction when people try to convince others that it's actually a fast car. No, it's not. I've been around way too many fast cars(not only in straight line but also in corners) to believe that bullshit. This car in stock form is not something I consider to be fast at all. But is it fun? Oh, hell yeah. It was so fun that after one drive, the numbers disappeared in front of my eyes and I became an owner after a few days.

So let's just accept this car for what it is and enjoy it. No reason to find any excuses and start comparing numbers just to say, "oh, this car at least is better in these areas than supercars."

BTW, getting to know our cars also made me want to try ND MX-5 to see how the driving experience compares to the twins. 10xx kg sounds delicious!

[nikitopo]

Depends the notion of a windy road. If you try a really windy road, even 200hp are a lot. Not many countries have real windy roads. Personally, I live in Europe and I have to travel near to the Alps to get excited. And it is not about the power as you said. In such conditions the weight, weight distribution and the center of mass counts the most. I stop the discussion here.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Depends the notion of a windy road. If you try a really windy road, even 200hp are a lot. Not many countries have real windy roads. Personally, I live in Europe and I have to travel near to the Alps to get excited. And it is not about the power as you said. In such conditions the weight, weight distribution and the center of mass counts the most. It looks that Koreans still have to learn a lot by the Japanese. I stop the discussion here.

Just once would be all I ask!

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by Rookie84

If you start looking at the numbers, this car does not appeal to people like me. No matter how light it is, how fun it is to drive, how good the weight distribution is, etc., the fact is that this is not a fast car by any means on paper(and in real life as well). I come from owning many cars that easily put down 400whp or much more. I've owned Supra Turbo w/ single turbo, STi w/ GT30R, Evo 8 w/ 2.3L, GT35R, and meth injection, FD RX-7 w/ LS6 swap, IS300 w/ GTE swap... Hell, I can't even remember all just from top of my head. I was actually waiting for a TRD/STi version. Until I actually drove the car, I simply thought I would never be happy with such an underpowered(well, at least in my standards) car. Hell, it is more than 1 second slower to 60 than my daily driver(Chevy Caprice V8). It took me 3 years since its release to at least give it a try to see what all the fuss was about. I just wasn't interested in 200HP car with the same very reason why I was not interested in any Miatas.

After I drove the car, and it all made sense. The driving position, steering feel, balance of the chassis, great visibility, great feedback which lets me know what each tire was exactly doing... The closest thing in driving feel of this car was from FC and FD RX-7 I've owned. The biggest difference? Having "only" 200HP lets me actually use all the power on the street without killing myself, which actually makes it more fun to drive.

The reason why this car can keep up with cars with much more power in winding roads is simple. The balance is great, and the power is just the right amount. It really is scary to push through mountains in any cars that have more than 400HP. You spend most of your time fighting the power in corner exits. With the twins, you just put your foot down and enjoy the experience. Since high powered cars cannot use even 70% of the power unless the driver has no concerns for safety, the twins, being able to use most of the little power they've got along with the great balance of the chassis, can keep up with the big boys.

This car is not about the numbers and I somehow have an allergic reaction when people try to convince others that it's actually a fast car. No, it's not. I've been around way too many fast cars(not only in straight line but also in corners) to believe that bullshit. This car in stock form is not something I consider to be fast at all. But is it fun? Oh, hell yeah. It was so fun that after one drive, the numbers disappeared in front of my eyes and I became an owner after a few days.

So let's just accept this car for what it is and enjoy it. No reason to find any excuses and start comparing numbers just to say, "oh, this car at least is better in these areas than supercars."

BTW, getting to know our cars also made me want to try ND MX-5 to see how the driving experience compares to the twins. 10xx kg sounds delicious!

Try an S2000. Also, try an RX7 that doesn't have an LS in it. :P

[Rookie84]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

Try an S2000. Also, try an RX7 that doesn't have an LS in it. :P

RX7 with LSX swap retains the factory weight distribution and curb weight. You might be surprised how heavy 13B engines + all turbo related equipment are. It's been proven to have no adverse effects on handling. Despite what people think, LSX is actually a quite compact package due to pushrod design. I also owned an RX7 with rotary engine although it was an FC.

I would love to add S2000 to my collection one day. I almost bought one once but ended up buying Evo 8 instead since I needed some space.

[Rookie84]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Depends the notion of a windy road. If you try a really windy road, even 200hp are a lot. Not many countries have real windy roads. Personally, I live in Europe and I have to travel near to the Alps to get excited. And it is not about the power as you said. In such conditions the weight, weight distribution and the center of mass counts the most. I stop the discussion here.

I think we agree on most things here but just express them in different ways. We both love the balance and fun-to-drive factor of the twins, right? We both get what this car is about, hence the reason why we both own them.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by Rookie84

RX7 with LSX swap retains the factory weight distribution and curb weight. You might be surprised how heavy 13B engines + all turbo related equipment are. It's been proven to have no adverse effects on handling. Despite what people think, LSX is actually a quite compact package due to pushrod design. I also owned an RX7 with rotary engine although it was an FC.

I would love to add S2000 to my collection one day. I almost bought one once but ended up buying Evo 8 instead since I needed some space.

It might retain the same curb weight, but I don't see how it would retain the same weight distribution/polar moment of inertia/handling feel considering the engine now sticks out much further past the strut towers/front axle and sits higher in the chassis.

I don't doubt it still handles extremely well though. In general, the S2000 and RX7 are the two "affordable RWD cars" I would consider to be better driver's cars/better handling than the twins though... with the 240sx/Silvia coming in at about a tie (not stock for stock, just platform vs platform).

Ugh, I really need to find an RX7 shell to turn into a project car.